11. Be Well to Create Well - Storytelling Through Movement with Sarah Perry

This is a conversation with Movement Coach and Movement Director Sarah Perry.
Topics of conversation include her wide range of work, from blockbuster movies like Guardians of the Galaxy, to Netflix specials, to live streamed virtual theatre.  We discuss her process for finding characterisation through movement, working with motion capture, finding space for playfulness within a creative process, and her approach to combining creative work with a wellbeing practice.

Sarah's website sarahperrymovement.com
Shapes in Motion shapesinmotion.com


and you can find me on instagram @_robin_fuller_

Transcript

00:00:15:10 - 00:00:30:02
Robin Fuller
Hello. My name's Robin Fuller, and this is Hatching Crows, a podcast about creativity, creative people and all of their different individual processes and really what it means to make a life as a creative person. So you might have noticed that the release schedule has been a bit wonky recently.

00:00:30:14 - 00:00:43:11
Robin Fuller
I have no excuse. It's the summer. I'm busy, my guests are busy. There's festivals, there's lakes and rivers that need swimming in. There’s trees that need climbing and weird little caves that need exploring. So scheduling has been kind of tough.

00:00:44:05 - 00:00:57:07
Robin Fuller
The best thing you can do is subscribe wherever you're listening to the podcast, whether it's Spotify, Apple Podcasts, whatever it is, just make sure you subscribe and that way you’ll always know when another podcast comes out in my haphazard but well intentioned schedule.

00:00:57:23 - 00:01:18:20
Robin Fuller
Okay, on with the episode. So joining me today is the movement coach and movement director Sarah Perry. Topics of conversation include her range of work from blockbuster movies and Netflix specials to live stream virtual theater. Her process for finding characterization through movement, working with motion capture, finding space for playfulness within a creative process, and her approach to combining

00:01:18:20 - 00:02:11:08
Robin Fuller
creative work with a wellbeing practice. Oh, and a crash course in Laban  who until this recording, I thought was pronounced Laban. Every day is a school day. Right. Enjoy. 


00:02:11:09 - 00:02:12:04
Robin Fuller
I'm sorry. I always feel slightly strange about this because I go from talking to you to talking to an audience.

00:02:11:09 - 00:02:17:08
Sarah Perry
I know. We'll just pretend we're not there. We just, like, go for it.

00:02:17:15 - 00:02:34:14
Robin Fuller
It's like, oh, take a breath…. Today, I think we'll be talking all about movement because my guest is a movement director, movement tutor and performance coach. Her work ranges from films like Guardians of the Galaxy through theater and stage work, to livestream motion capture, all the way through to teaching yoga and movement for wellbeing.

00:02:34:22 - 00:02:35:21
Robin Fuller
It is Sarah Perry.

00:02:36:17 - 00:02:38:09
Sarah Perry
Hello. Hi, Robin. How are you?

00:02:38:18 - 00:02:54:23
Robin Fuller
Very good. Yeah, I'm really glad that we kind of managed to find time to have this conversation, because I've known your work for a long time, primarily back when I was working, mostly as an animator. But through since that time, I've actually kind of been working a lot more movement practice into what I do and, and kind

00:02:54:23 - 00:03:09:02
Robin Fuller
of just following your work is always like, wow, this that's, you know, really amazing and kind of you doing similar things in these are kind of overlapping disciplines of kind of movement practices and kind of how these movement practices can be used in different contexts.

00:03:09:02 - 00:03:12:02
Robin Fuller
So yeah, there's so much I want to talk to you about.

00:03:13:10 - 00:03:14:05
Sarah Perry
Fire away.

00:03:15:03 - 00:03:22:08
Robin Fuller
Well, I think if we can maybe start with almost like a, like a bird's eye view of your practice kind of as a whole is okay.

00:03:22:12 - 00:03:39:02
Sarah Perry
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I mean, just maybe to kind of go back in time and it'll be, I suppose, just to give, you know, give some context. I mean, my background was in acting and I was an actor who was very passionate about movement as a form of communication.

00:03:39:15 - 00:03:54:04
Sarah Perry
And funnily enough, it because it was an area I struggled in and it was an area initially, you know, whilst at drama school or studying. I love movement, I love dance. I did all that, but it was like, okay, why is my body doing really weird things when I'm trying to act?

00:03:54:04 - 00:04:13:12
Sarah Perry
You know, when I'm trying to become another character, my hands all of a sudden start sort of behaving abnormally. My posture sort of starts taking on a weird embodiment of its own, you know? And I wasn't kind of in control as much as I wanted to be necessarily, you know, to kind of form these characters I was

00:04:13:13 - 00:04:31:18
Sarah Perry
working on. So it really was a journey for myself initially getting into movement. So I started to do lots of different classes, of course, at drama school, but this was post drama school at the beginning of my career as well, and just generally got fascinated with the body, as I said, as a, as a mode of communication

00:04:31:18 - 00:04:47:02
Sarah Perry
, as a way to tell a story, as a way to embody a character, breathe differently, even, you know, how you hold yourself, posture, but little subtle movements and nuances that you could do to help yourself, you know, come out of yourself and then become someone else.

00:04:47:03 - 00:04:59:22
Sarah Perry
But then also to to yeah. Share someone else with the audience or the viewer. So that's really kind of how it started. So I did lots of different courses. I always dance, so I loved dance as well and moved in some capacity.

00:04:59:22 - 00:05:18:17
Sarah Perry
Capoeira I kind of flirted with a little bit, wasn't great, but really loved it. And then, you know, had my career, career as an actor, which was wonderful, but it's a tough game, tough industry. So to cut a long story short, part of the work that I did to survive as a struggling actor was to teach English

00:05:18:17 - 00:05:31:06
Sarah Perry
as a foreign language and then to do some acting, coaching, etc.. And I started really with animators. I was like, I've worked enough as an actor. I don't really want to work with actors anymore. Sorry actors out there.

00:05:31:06 - 00:05:52:10
Sarah Perry
I've changed my mind since, but I was really fascinated with how animators worked. And I was working at MPC and teaching English as a foreign language way back when in about 2007, I think I started, and from that I was listening to the animators and what they had to do to try to bring their characters to life

00:05:53:05 - 00:06:09:01
Sarah Perry
and how they would use themselves as references, as, you know, in the industry to become that character, to give them ideas or inspiration on how they would therefore animate them, whether it's through stop motion or through CG, etc..

00:06:09:01 - 00:06:21:10
Sarah Perry
So I was like, Oh, wow, you know, so what tools are you pulling on to make those decisions? And they were like, Well, not really. You know, we've we've not had any acting training and we've not really had any movement training for, say, or understanding.

00:06:21:10 - 00:06:37:08
Sarah Perry
I mean, obviously, lots of life drawing and the body from that sort of skeletal proportion perspective, but not and some dynamic understanding as well, but not maybe from the movement perspective as an actor would maybe look into it or a dancer.

00:06:37:09 - 00:06:49:09
Robin Fuller
Yeah, yeah. I think I think animators, they get taught a lot of observation. You get to, well, that's one of the first things you just observe, observe, observe. And so you gain your understanding through that. But none of that is is embodied.

00:06:50:08 - 00:07:03:15
Robin Fuller
And I think that's really valuable for animators. It's one of the first things I always try to tell animators when people are trying to trying to work out movement, I'm like, get up and do it. This is the best way to gain an understanding of a movement is by going through it yourself, even if you can't see

00:07:03:15 - 00:07:06:24
Robin Fuller
it. I think it really helps to kind of cement understanding.

00:07:07:02 - 00:07:21:03
Sarah Perry
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that was the challenge, you know, initially was like getting animators up on their feet. Yeah. You know, it's like, you know, and again, dancers, actors, great. You know, they volunteer, they go and and animators like, well, you know, like, I have to actually get up and do it.

00:07:21:03 - 00:07:34:05
Sarah Perry
But then, you know, you slip into a lot of, you know, play. You know, we moved a lot with like fun games and warm ups and then started to take it into specific characters, whatever they were working on, the different animation houses, etc..

00:07:34:05 - 00:07:50:20
Sarah Perry
But yeah, so getting them on their feet was like a challenge in itself. And then I think, you know, once you get that the team into it, you know, then it's they can see, as you described, the use of it, the power of it to actually embody it.

00:07:50:21 - 00:08:04:24
Sarah Perry
And it's really just to give, again, them some inspiration, to feel weight, to feel tempo, to feel an emotion and how that manifests physically through the body, through the extremities, the hands, the feet, you know, through little gestures.

00:08:04:24 - 00:08:18:22
Sarah Perry
And I think, yeah, tend to miss that opportunity of getting up and doing it. Yes, you can animate and create something great, but to do it and feel it I think can give you so many more performance ideas or performance choices, I suppose.

00:08:18:22 - 00:08:19:04
Sarah Perry
Yeah.

00:08:19:16 - 00:08:28:24
Robin Fuller
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, so you sort of almost I guess it has sort of just met the right people at the right time and kind of and grew from there.

00:08:28:24 - 00:08:40:24
Sarah Perry
Yeah, it did. It really did. And then from there, I think it was about 2010, I kind of formally set out shakes and motion like my company. Then that was really for me working with animators. It was a tough industry to get in.

00:08:40:24 - 00:08:48:22
Sarah Perry
I often knocked on the door as Sarah Perry and there was not a lot of reply. As soon as I set up a company, it was like, Oh yeah, you know, come in and do a workshop with us.

00:08:48:22 - 00:08:50:02
Sarah Perry
So that was an immediate thing.

00:08:50:09 - 00:08:52:07
Robin Fuller
Yeah, yeah. I wonder why that is.

00:08:52:07 - 00:09:02:02
Sarah Perry
I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it was a while ago, 2006, but it was yeah. You know, maybe taken a bit more seriously. I don't know, maybe I took myself a bit more seriously. Who knows? You know, it just helps.

00:09:02:02 - 00:09:24:01
Sarah Perry
You gave me that confidence. And then from from working with the animators generally in different VFX houses and in education is, you know, like working with different universities then began to work more on specific projects and characters and productions that they were working on, which was a wonderful transition because then I could get my teeth right into

00:09:24:01 - 00:09:40:09
Sarah Perry
a character with them. So we would be that character for like six weeks at a time, for example, or really delve into the research in one area. Obviously, as a practitioner searching that character would be like that. Why that creature would be would be like that.

00:09:41:17 - 00:09:43:22
Sarah Perry
So that was a nice sort of step.

00:09:44:12 - 00:09:59:08
Robin Fuller
Yeah. So you kind of went from kind of almost kind of teaching like a general approach to movement. And then once people really saw the value in what you were bringing, then they were like, Actually, we've got this a very specific character that we were he kind of need to finesse and brought you in for that.

00:09:59:09 - 00:10:17:04
Sarah Perry
Yeah, absolutely. And then I mean, the first two and I'll I'll never forget, you know, MP really kind of was a moving picture company were there with me right at the beginning, you know, even in my journey shifting from actor to movement director, shifting from actor to movement tutor, you know, and it was with again, I think

00:10:17:04 - 00:10:29:02
Sarah Perry
it was back in 2008, 2010 rep from from Narnia, you know like working with with I am and I was just like, oh my gosh, is this really happening? You know, I'm being a tiny part, you know. Yeah.

00:10:29:03 - 00:10:47:11
Sarah Perry
So did that big thing was really, really special and I'm sure I've still got the footage somewhere like the animators running around is like part, part man, part mouse, and you're trying to find that balance. And that was yeah, like that really was a big kickstart for me and, and I'll never forget that, you know, and then

00:10:47:11 - 00:11:03:04
Sarah Perry
, you know, going on from there, working with, with other productions too. And then funnily enough, with that whole merge of animation and then with motion capture was around that time. And you know, like with a lot of our careers, nothing was planned.

00:11:03:04 - 00:11:14:22
Sarah Perry
Things just sort of evolved, right? And so then I was brought back in the world of working with actors again, and that's when, you know, I was like, okay, let's take a break and just wonderful working with that.

00:11:14:22 - 00:11:16:06
Sarah Perry
Yeah, to the roots.

00:11:16:09 - 00:11:26:07
Robin Fuller
Okay. Yeah, it's easy to sort of think that the way things are now is the way things have been in the past. I hadn't really considered that you would have gone away from acting through animation and come back that way.

00:11:26:08 - 00:11:27:10
Robin Fuller
Yeah. Now that's really cool.

00:11:27:10 - 00:11:43:06
Sarah Perry
Yeah. What was it, crazy? I think it was sort of transitioning more, as you said right at the beginning into movement, because what I mean, even though with the animators it was acting, but it was really they were it was acting in performance, but it was like, how is that manifesting physically through that character?

00:11:43:06 - 00:12:01:16
Sarah Perry
And so then it become, you know, movement focused, but you couldn't take away what was happening internally with the character, you know, all of that sort of internal subtext and character thought and character emotion. So the two are working hand in hand, but in a way, yeah, I stepped away from my roots to, to, to.

00:12:01:16 - 00:12:12:24
Sarah Perry
But it's all connected now. It's all totally in one. Even whether it's animation, whether it's VR, whether it's motion capture, whether it's dance, you know, it's all telling a story through a character or a body or an emotion.

00:12:12:24 - 00:12:22:17
Sarah Perry
And actually now they are emerging more together, whereas before it was bit more compartmentalized for me. When I was starting out, perhaps I didn't realize I confused them together.

00:12:23:06 - 00:12:39:16
Robin Fuller
Mm hmm. Yeah. But I think that's kind of what it sounds like is. Yeah, the fuzing together of lots of different things and kind of finding that niche, finding that need that perhaps other people didn't even realize they needed, you know, that and kind of, you know, fitting yourself into it and kind of pushing it open and

00:12:39:16 - 00:12:41:21
Robin Fuller
saying, well, seeing where you fit in. Yeah.

00:12:42:02 - 00:12:55:17
Sarah Perry
Yeah. And that was what was a lovely thing. I mean, Ed Hooks, he had written a book, great, you know, great practitioner in this, you know, acting for for animators. And a lot of the animators I met in the early days, you know, had read his book at that time.

00:12:55:17 - 00:13:07:17
Sarah Perry
And that was a kind of a good sort of starting point for them to be familiar with some things. So Stanislavski and Robin, which then I really wanted to flesh out more and work with, you know, those sort of key areas.

00:13:08:07 - 00:13:15:17
Sarah Perry
And in and there were conversations I remember when, you know, there were like, well, we didn't realize we needed this. We didn't realize we had to get up to be able to.

00:13:16:18 - 00:13:19:21
Robin Fuller
You don't know what you don't know, right? Yeah, I think that's right.

00:13:20:11 - 00:13:40:22
Sarah Perry
And to be part of that was just so lovely, you know, all learning together. And I was learning at the same time more about movement analysis because it made me develop my learnings, if that makes sense, you know, and do other trainings and study anatomy more and just understand more of the animation world and how they have

00:13:40:22 - 00:13:57:00
Sarah Perry
to work. And it made me appreciate that. And then it, then it really helped with my work with actors, with real bodies. So had I not done that, you know, I don't know if I'd have been able to sort of transition maybe so smoothly into some of the work I do now.

00:13:58:00 - 00:14:00:22
Sarah Perry
Yeah, I don't know if that makes sense, but it's you know, it does.

00:14:00:22 - 00:14:08:19
Robin Fuller
It really does. I think was the thing. I think interdisciplinarity. Did I say that right? Interdisciplinarity, yes.

00:14:08:19 - 00:14:12:01
Sarah Perry
Okay. I'm terrible at pronunciation. So know.

00:14:12:21 - 00:14:16:04
Robin Fuller
I felt the urge to get an extra syllable in there, but I'm not quite sure what the silver would have.

00:14:16:04 - 00:14:16:08
Sarah Perry
Been.

00:14:17:19 - 00:14:33:20
Robin Fuller
Anyway. Yeah. Across discipline practice I think is so important, you know. And I think there's it's important to be focused and to be, you know, specialization has its its values. But yeah, there's so much to learn always from so many different disciplines.

00:14:33:20 - 00:14:43:02
Robin Fuller
I mean, that's kind of what this podcast is really all about is, is me talking to other people in different disciplines and being like, okay, right, you've got this, you know this, and how can I apply that to what I do?

00:14:43:03 - 00:14:48:10
Robin Fuller
And how could this thing that someone say be combined with this thing somebody else said and yeah. Smashing together. Yeah.

00:14:48:10 - 00:14:59:22
Sarah Perry
And that's the beauty of creativity, isn't it? We're all inspiring one another and we can't do anything alone. You know, we need that inspiration and we need that collaboration and, you know, to see things through a different lens and through someone else's eyes.

00:14:59:22 - 00:15:14:20
Sarah Perry
You know, it's like this working with a script writer, working with a director, working with a movement coach, working with the animator. Like we were all maybe trying to tell the same story, but we're seeing it through a different lens and without one another, you know, you can't build that full picture, perhaps, you know, depending on the

00:15:14:22 - 00:15:25:03
Sarah Perry
project and stuff. But it's yeah, I think it's great to kind of listen to all these different voices. It's great what you're doing, you know, with this podcast of Yeah, bringing people together really good.

00:15:25:09 - 00:15:41:15
Robin Fuller
Yeah, yeah. It's, it's been a yeah, it's been fascinating and it's some I kind of started it on a whim just I want because I think I want to have these conversations every now and then with people like yourself and you know, maybe we'd, we'd have this conversation like over a coffee while we were like on a

00:15:41:15 - 00:15:44:07
Robin Fuller
break from, like running a workshop or something.

00:15:44:13 - 00:15:44:19
Sarah Perry
Yeah.

00:15:46:03 - 00:15:52:17
Robin Fuller
But they happened so infrequently, and I just wanted to find a space where I could, like, make them happen. And it seemed like a podcast was a good excuse.

00:15:52:22 - 00:16:01:08
Sarah Perry
Yeah, no, it's great. Yeah, and it's really great. You should have a get get some, a couple of people at a time conversing. I don't know if that works, but it would be interesting.

00:16:01:08 - 00:16:05:05
Robin Fuller
I should try. That actually is a good idea. So kind of fast forward to now.

00:16:05:07 - 00:16:05:13
Sarah Perry
Yeah.

00:16:06:02 - 00:16:15:21
Robin Fuller
So there's lots of different kind of things that you do. Yeah. What's the kind of what's the balance like? Is there kind of one thing that takes most of your time or.

00:16:16:10 - 00:16:38:11
Sarah Perry
Yeah, I think it's always shifting and it's always evolving. So, you know, there's chapters where I work a lot, you know, well, there was a chapter in a more in education. So going around to, you know, to more universities, drama, schools, sharing, you know, the knowledge that you have and exploring that with emerging and young, young practitioners

00:16:38:23 - 00:16:53:22
Sarah Perry
in education. So there's a chapter and then I think really now it's a I've had to sort of sometimes let some things go to enable more space for other areas and that's always hard. But you know, movement is about shifting and changing.

00:16:53:22 - 00:17:03:19
Sarah Perry
So I'm okay to evolve and I'm okay for, you know, my next chapter, whatever that might be, to be a slightly different balance of things. So I guess now I'm in, I work as a yoga teacher, yoga therapist.

00:17:05:04 - 00:17:17:15
Sarah Perry
Since the pandemic went online, since I've moved out of London, it's been online, and actually that's really worked for me in a way that at first I thought, No way am I teaching yoga online. No way am I teaching yoga therapy online.

00:17:17:15 - 00:17:36:11
Sarah Perry
That's not the right thing to do. And I totally turned on that because actually it was really good and it was brilliant for me, selfishly, because it gave me more time and space to do my creative work rather than zipping around London, you know, on the tube, going to clients, applying, going to classes, trying to fit in

00:17:36:11 - 00:17:58:01
Sarah Perry
my production work, trying to fit in the teaching work, etc., exhausted most of the time. So now the balance really is I have only 2 to 2 morning classes a week and sometimes I do get rescheduled if I'm on a production and then a smaller group really is private clients and I don't really put it out there

00:17:58:01 - 00:18:09:12
Sarah Perry
to do too much, although, you know, if there is someone that recommends someone, then I'll, you know, take on a new client. But I don't really advertise it so much, but I love that. And that's in my spare room at home.

00:18:09:12 - 00:18:26:05
Sarah Perry
That's my studio, and I can manage my time quite well with that. And then I guess my, my other, the main thing is more now movement directing for TV and film and sometimes it's theater, you know, it could be VR projects.

00:18:26:05 - 00:18:40:03
Sarah Perry
It does vary, but it just seems at the moment there's a particularly TV work that's quite fruitful. And when you're on a production, I mean, I can't talk about it too much now, but there's one I've just literally started last week, and that's going to be going on to December.

00:18:40:03 - 00:18:57:03
Sarah Perry
That's wonderful. That's a great chunk of time and I'm not there all the time and I'm not there every day. But you're sort of on call and available for that period, so I have to be free in the other work that I might have to sacrifice for a little while to be able to to put my energy

00:18:57:03 - 00:19:16:04
Sarah Perry
and focus into that, for example. So yeah, the movement directing and it's different is mostly working with actors. Sometimes some projects are more VFX heavy, so it could be working with the VFX team, could be some animation, it could be some kind of wizardry with the VFX and how the actors have to kind of work with that

00:19:16:04 - 00:19:34:13
Sarah Perry
maybe. And some like now there's not really any of that at all. It's very character driven, so it's working with specific characters to be a character coach, I suppose, you know, to get them to find that character's body and isms and behavior, rhythms and characteristics and special things, as it were.

00:19:34:19 - 00:19:43:01
Sarah Perry
So each project is different, but they're my two main balances, I think at the moment, the yoga, yoga therapy and working on productions.

00:19:43:15 - 00:19:57:01
Robin Fuller
MM Great. And the movement directing. I'm kind of really curious about the process of that, how that kind of how that works really. Are you kind of working one on one with particular people or are you working with groups of people or is it both?

00:19:57:06 - 00:20:15:16
Sarah Perry
Yeah, it really is different project to project. So it really depends on what is required for for each production. So for some productions, I could be working pretty much with one main actor if there is something that they really need to work on for that character.

00:20:15:17 - 00:20:25:23
Sarah Perry
So say if they're playing a character with a specific condition or an illness, or if they're playing a character that's a real person, so they have to really take the truth.

00:20:26:10 - 00:20:27:00
Robin Fuller
Yeah.

00:20:27:11 - 00:20:45:02
Sarah Perry
Those details, you know, or it could be they're playing a character from a certain era or a time in history that needs, again, some detail and attention and rehearsal put to it. So it can be very much 1 to 1 to working with a an actor or maybe a few actors.

00:20:45:11 - 00:21:10:08
Sarah Perry
But separately, it could be more choreography. So it could be that you're you're choreographing not a big dance sequence. Some movement directors, all choreographers. I'm more of a movement director that works with character and actors, but I can do some basic choreography and ensemble work or abstract physical of physical theater or physical interpretation or something of a

00:21:10:08 - 00:21:27:14
Sarah Perry
scene. So it could be that so it could be working on an abstract moment or where all the actors have to move, like in synchronization, or they have to do something with certain time and rhythm or flow, or it is basic dance.

00:21:27:14 - 00:21:44:20
Sarah Perry
So it really varies, you know. And again, if it's animation, of course it's working differently. There's a lot of play involved, you know, there's a lot of playing. I'm working closely with the directors or the stunt coordinator sometimes, or the VFX department if it requires that.

00:21:44:20 - 00:21:48:14
Sarah Perry
So it's very bespoke, I would say each project.

00:21:48:16 - 00:22:03:13
Robin Fuller
I see and that was kind of going to be my next question actually, sort of how you work with a director in that scenario. So what sets you when you're doing character work if you're trying to find the character, I guess what that overlap is and sort of what what's what's the little the kind of the slight

00:22:03:15 - 00:22:06:15
Robin Fuller
. Of the pie. That's kind of your domain, the thing you look after.

00:22:06:15 - 00:22:21:01
Sarah Perry
Yeah. And again, that really varies. So directors work very differently. So some directors, you know, can call you in to work with an actor, for example, and then you actually don't do an awful lot because then they're doing it, you know?

00:22:21:06 - 00:22:33:02
Sarah Perry
Oh, okay. I'm just here to let you know I'll be there just in case and others really give you that free, free rein with the actor to say you go rehearse, you guys work together, come show me some stuff.

00:22:33:05 - 00:22:48:09
Sarah Perry
You know, that obviously they have to what's the word like approve things or sign things off? Yes. That's that's kind of the physicality that works well. That's the you know, that's what we want. And then they'll give you notes and you go off and you work with the actor again or work with the performers, etc..

00:22:48:18 - 00:23:02:04
Sarah Perry
And so you're really given, you know, a lot of creative license to do kind of what you want. Some have a good strong list of what they want and how they want it to be and give you references, which is super useful.

00:23:02:04 - 00:23:16:07
Sarah Perry
So you have an idea of the tone that they want. What I tend to do is give options. So when I'm rehearsing or working with an actor, whether it's individual or ensemble, I will take the brief, whatever it is that you know you've been offered and I'll be okay.

00:23:16:07 - 00:23:33:10
Sarah Perry
Here's sort of what the director wants, but let me go off in two different directions as well. So I can do a kind of a simplified version for, say or a lighter tone. And then I can have a more of a complex version because you want to put your own little artistic and creative stamp on it as

00:23:33:10 - 00:23:43:18
Sarah Perry
well. And they'll be like, No, no, no way too much. You know, we don't need that. But if you give options, they can get inspired too, because they have an idea in their mind, but they're not a movement director, you know, they might understand movement.

00:23:44:04 - 00:24:01:22
Sarah Perry
And some are like, No, it's not my world at all. I need you to really kind of bring this out of the scene. So it really depends, you know, and it's really great when you can just work alongside a really good director who who it doesn't matter if they know what they want or don't, because you can

00:24:01:23 - 00:24:15:03
Sarah Perry
work that out together and with the other team, you know, in the production too. So sometimes it's super full on and you're there for the whole process. That's what I live for. Other times you are thrown in into a production week for you.

00:24:15:03 - 00:24:31:00
Sarah Perry
Turn up on the day. You don't even know what the work's going to be. Okay, you've got an hour before we start shooting. Just to work with these few people. Can you just create da da da and you're like, oh, my goodness, you know, you do make something happen, but it might not be your best work.

00:24:31:11 - 00:24:46:19
Sarah Perry
Sure. So your your it really does depend. Depends on lots of things as in your world, you know, the animation and that is, you know, budget. It depends on time. Yeah. You know, it's we are directors. We're directors that just have a movement is a focal point.

00:24:47:02 - 00:25:03:02
Sarah Perry
You know, we still look at the text, we still look at character, we look at psychology, we look at the back story of the character, you know, bringing all that together. We just happen to be focusing on the embodiment and how that works with the text, breath and scene and intentions, etc. Yeah.

00:25:03:24 - 00:25:15:18
Robin Fuller
I really like when this happens. I've got like a bunch of notes and like so often like they're very kind of like compartmentalized. Like, here's this topic and here's the things I only talk about the so often that like, the conversation just flows straight from it.

00:25:16:05 - 00:25:18:19
Sarah Perry
But I waffle on, do not.

00:25:19:12 - 00:25:39:23
Robin Fuller
Until I'm like literally on the edge of my seat, all of this stuff. Because what you're just saying actually really it brings to mind the process of character design as the visual, visual character design and sort of the kind of uniqueness that you want to bring to a character.

00:25:39:23 - 00:25:51:16
Robin Fuller
You want to start with a silhouette which is immediately recognizable. And I think similarly you want that with the movement as well. You want a movement language which is instantly recognizable from scene to scene. I know it's this character.

00:25:51:16 - 00:26:10:19
Robin Fuller
I know that I understand their gait. I understand the way they they stand or breathe or whatever, and all the details that we would try to bring into a character design. So, you know, this elements of the character's history, the way we want them to feel, they're the emotionality that we want them to project, all of those

00:26:10:19 - 00:26:16:10
Robin Fuller
things and all of these things. You must be kind of bringing it to the movement as well. Where do you start?

00:26:17:11 - 00:26:30:23
Sarah Perry
Where do you start? Good question, Robin. Good question. And this is you know, it's a really interesting one because sometimes you could start with, you know, getting a character brief in terms of a visual concept, art form, right?

00:26:30:23 - 00:26:43:04
Sarah Perry
So, you know, you get the you know, you get an animated character, you can see it. And you have those conversations with the animation animators, animation supervisors, directors, you know, what? What are you thinking? What are you seeing?

00:26:43:05 - 00:27:00:11
Sarah Perry
What are you what? You know, you just get the clues. It's like being a detective, isn't it? You know? What do you know already? What do you want to happen? You know? And then it if you're trying to, if you're going from the perspective of taking a character design first and then how to embody it again, it's

00:27:00:11 - 00:27:16:11
Sarah Perry
through play. Like we would just get up. And then what? Actually, I tell you what I do do sometimes. I often get animators and actors to just lie on the floor or close their eyes or sit up if they feel more comfortable and start to bring that character to the mind's eye.

00:27:16:12 - 00:27:32:10
Sarah Perry
So maybe we'll have a look at different sketches and things start to think, you know, start to see them, start to have a look at that, their height, their proportions, what are they wearing? And if they're not wearing anything, they've got fur claws that they can put, you know, just to start to see them.

00:27:32:20 - 00:27:48:19
Sarah Perry
And then sort of through in a weird way, kind of a meditative way, bring them up to start moving like that character. And it's really interesting how they just sort of go for it, you know, because they've seen it, they've made some decisions, whether they've realized it or not.

00:27:48:19 - 00:27:53:10
Sarah Perry
And it doesn't matter about being right or wrong at that stage. We're just playing. And, you know, if they're.

00:27:53:18 - 00:28:00:16
Robin Fuller
Making those initial marks on the canvas, right? Yes. Until then, you've got nothing. You've got a blank canvas there. Yeah. You those teeth.

00:28:00:21 - 00:28:12:07
Sarah Perry
Yeah. And you and everyone know and say if you've got a room of ten animators all working on the same character, for example, we might just be working with one, an actual animator, and it's what they're bringing to it, which is nice.

00:28:12:07 - 00:28:24:05
Sarah Perry
So then you start thinking, okay, then you, then you start directing them, almost movement directing. Okay, now think about their weight. Now think about, you know, where do they lead from? You know, is it the chest? Is it the chin?

00:28:24:05 - 00:28:33:03
Sarah Perry
Is it the head? Do they have more weight on the right side of their body than their left? So you start getting them to play and explore. Some things will be like, No, that character wouldn't be like that.

00:28:33:09 - 00:28:46:13
Sarah Perry
And others like, Oh, that's interesting to explore that. We could look at things like that, you know, this character center of gravity or what is their upper body doing, what is their lower body doing, how they sit, how would they stand?

00:28:46:13 - 00:29:00:11
Sarah Perry
How would they crawl if it's a quadruped or something, how would they what would their face be like? You know, just bringing all different things in, you know? Are they more, you know, what sense is a love for them?

00:29:00:11 - 00:29:13:08
Sarah Perry
You know, is it what they see? Is it what they hear? Is it what they smell? Is it what they touch? And then bringing some of those senses into the improvization in a way, and how that rips through the body language of the character.

00:29:13:18 - 00:29:26:14
Sarah Perry
So I do tend to sort of start with play and improvization and that's the same working with actors as well don't kind of have rules too soon because you can get stuck them found by them, you know, you will know that too.

00:29:27:18 - 00:29:39:21
Sarah Perry
And other times it's working collaboratively with an animator that maybe the character design is being developed or evolving as they're observing people moving. And they might add a detail.

00:29:40:00 - 00:29:41:22
Robin Fuller
That must be a great process. I like the sound of that.

00:29:41:22 - 00:29:59:06
Sarah Perry
Yeah. Yeah. And actually when we did dream with the RC marshmallow laser face and Philharmonia over the pandemic, I was working. It was a bit like that. We didn't know where to start in the sense, does that performance come first or did the character designs come first?

00:29:59:12 - 00:30:18:15
Sarah Perry
So we were literally working together side by side and the character, the characters in terms of the characters, I'm evolving as we were rehearsing. And I like that. And we didn't go as far as maybe because it was an R&D project, it we had to tick certain boxes, for example.

00:30:18:15 - 00:30:37:12
Sarah Perry
But moving on to a new project in the future, I would love that to work with a character designer or an animator to build the you know, this was in motion capture, for example, but to build the physicality and the character design together, yeah, I think would be yeah.

00:30:37:12 - 00:30:52:04
Robin Fuller
I mean, from my point of view, that makes total sense. I love the idea of that. It's so I think when you're designing a character, you have you have certain things in mind in terms of like that body language is the pose like where they hold and wait a little bit to take that forward into like natural

00:30:52:04 - 00:30:55:13
Robin Fuller
like the full range of motion and then allow that to feed back into the process.

00:30:55:13 - 00:30:56:15
Sarah Perry
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:56:15 - 00:30:57:00
Robin Fuller
That sounds.

00:30:57:00 - 00:30:59:07
Sarah Perry
Great. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah.

00:31:00:15 - 00:31:23:24
Robin Fuller
Yeah, absolutely. And so, yeah, you mentioned dream Ashley. Which from which I saw Stockholm. Yeah. Really fascinating project. So for people who aren't aware, can you kind of give a an overview? Yeah.

00:31:24:19 - 00:31:39:14
Sarah Perry
Yeah. So Dream was based on a midsummer Night's Dream, Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream. It was an audience of the future project. So it was an R&D and pre-pandemic it was actually going to be a VR immersive project. Oh, that's nice.

00:31:40:04 - 00:31:54:00
Sarah Perry
Yeah, it was. I mean, that's when marshmallow laser face headed by Robin was. Yeah. Going to create this virtual well this virtual forest and it was going to be a VR experience for the audience. And then the pandemic hit.

00:31:54:00 - 00:32:05:16
Sarah Perry
Right. So it was like, okay, now what do we do? We can't invite the audience to see anything. You know, we can't put on a live theater production because theaters won't open. So there was a last minute kind of merging of the two worlds.

00:32:05:16 - 00:32:23:14
Sarah Perry
They had some assets already with the with the forest. They had a kind of concept, a brief story concept of what may happen. And that's when I was brought on board to work with the performers to direct the performance side of it.

00:32:23:14 - 00:32:46:08
Sarah Perry
So you had the kind of asset side was already in place, and then Pippa Hill was the dramaturg, you know, bringing the story together and myself. So the three of us, Robin, myself and Pippa, kind of really work together as creatives to bring what was this VR immersive world into a live virtual world through motion capture.

00:32:47:10 - 00:32:52:02
Sarah Perry
So that was really interesting and scary at the same time.

00:32:53:24 - 00:33:08:11
Robin Fuller
Yeah, but it was it was a great thing to watch again because it was, I think everyone was sort of starved of, of, of theater at the time because we were in full lockdown. I was actually living in an Airbnb for a while as a strange period in my life.

00:33:09:20 - 00:33:22:00
Robin Fuller
So I remember I remember watching it from there very clearly and sort of it's a terrible thing, unfortunately, because it's so close to my world. Like there's a part of my brain that was kind of unpicking the puzzle of like, okay, so this is working on Unreal Engine.

00:33:22:10 - 00:33:27:23
Robin Fuller
Now, is this camera being prerecorded or is this kind of like, I couldn't turn that off, unfortunately.

00:33:27:24 - 00:33:39:24
Sarah Perry
I know that was it. That was that was the challenge of it, though, because it was all live and that's what people didn't realize. There's no post-production, you know? Yes, there were assets created, but it was all live, you know, and it could be different every night.

00:33:40:06 - 00:33:53:01
Sarah Perry
And we had a handheld camera. So Tom was like the eighth performer that was the handheld camera within the show. You couldn't see him, but he was determining the point of view of the audience and that could be slightly different each night.

00:33:54:13 - 00:34:04:16
Robin Fuller
Yeah, so it was all running inside of a game engine. It's a live performance kind of motion captured into that. And it was I think that's something using face tracking as well. Yeah. So I'm, I'm getting a bit techie now.

00:34:05:07 - 00:34:10:15
Sarah Perry
Go for it because that's not my world. I mean, I love it, but I'm not so good at expressing the tech side inside of me.

00:34:10:22 - 00:34:27:19
Robin Fuller
I think people would be interested to know, yes, it is already in life, real time in a game engine, real time motion capture, a real time facial capture, obviously with the vocal performances as well. Yeah. And streamed and they did an interesting thing where there was some kind of split screen.

00:34:28:20 - 00:34:44:09
Robin Fuller
Split screen where they would actually have a camera feed off the actors next to the motion, capture it within the convention. Yeah. And I think that did a good job. I think letting people know that it was life, that it was happening there in the moment, that it wasn't, that it wasn't prerecorded because.

00:34:44:09 - 00:35:01:00
Sarah Perry
Yeah, absolutely. And if we had post-production, of course we could finessed things. Of course you can change things, you can add things, you can take things away, you can build, you know. But that was the challenge of it creatively was we didn't have post-production, so it was as good as it was going to be, you know, as

00:35:01:00 - 00:35:20:17
Sarah Perry
a live theater, you know, live theater performance. And I think, you know, you can't compare that to an animation that has had like six months or a year's worth of work and post-production. And, you know, the two cannot not be in the same or kind of gauged in that same category.

00:35:20:17 - 00:35:28:16
Sarah Perry
You know, it's it's very different. So, I mean, personally, I'd love to explore more projects like that. I think that's a really interesting way of working.

00:35:29:00 - 00:35:43:01
Robin Fuller
I guess the next step of that would be to to make it to bring in more into the world of theater would be to have some way to for the performers to have an awareness of the audience. Yeah, because I think that's something you get you get in theater that you don't get in, you know, in film

00:35:43:01 - 00:35:47:12
Robin Fuller
or TV. Is that kind of like exchange of energy that happens between between those people?

00:35:47:24 - 00:35:59:21
Sarah Perry
Yeah, there's a lot of conversations out there, you know, that we're actually having is as creatives in the sense of, you know, how do you still stay connected to your audience and you work in VR as well, isn't it?

00:35:59:21 - 00:36:19:06
Sarah Perry
You know, those conversations are happening all the time. You know, it's all about the audience. It's about the viewer. We want to connect with them through emotion, through story, through that liveness. And then how can also, you know, if the performer is doing a lot of the work without having an audience there, you know, how are they

00:36:19:07 - 00:36:35:15
Sarah Perry
getting that exchange, as you said, and what is that feedback? And they didn't have that. They have me in the room, you know, like, yeah, yeah, you know, whatever that they had to trust, you know, trust their creative process that there was an audience out there responding and and you and that's why we made it very much

00:36:35:15 - 00:36:58:19
Sarah Perry
an ensemble piece. So the eight performers were there together all the time, even if you didn't see them on, you know, in the volume to be there for one another, you know, moving things, lifting things, taking the characters weight, supporting being there, you know, because they needed some sort of energy, as you said, and feedback and togetherness

00:36:59:17 - 00:37:13:24
Sarah Perry
. And if it was just one actor at the time in the middle of the volume. Oh, that's quiet. Yeah, very hot, you know, and you can do it again with post-production. But it's they need to get something from someone else as well as much as the audience.

00:37:13:24 - 00:37:27:22
Sarah Perry
And there's lots of conversations flowing at the moment, you know, how can we build that more with the virtual, you know, this sort of audience performer, truth, connection, you know, that said, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:27:22 - 00:37:39:03
Robin Fuller
I think that kind of virtual live performances there, some really interesting things happening in that space. A lot of them are happening on kind of platforms that are not as sort of high tech, I suppose, that are very accessible.

00:37:39:03 - 00:37:53:01
Robin Fuller
And I think that's that's where they thrive. So things like, like VR chats and kind of yeah, spaces like that. And I think, you know, everyone's kind of talking about the metaverse. Yeah, yeah. And sort of what that means for, for performance.

00:37:53:01 - 00:38:01:21
Robin Fuller
And yeah, that's really interesting things happening in there. And I think it does all come back to community and connectedness. That's the thing that thrives in those spaces.

00:38:01:24 - 00:38:11:00
Sarah Perry
Yeah, absolutely. And it's the roots, isn't it? The roots of storytelling. You know, we just sort of, you know, we were all storytellers way back when. And whether we chose to be an actor or not, it doesn't matter.

00:38:11:00 - 00:38:28:05
Sarah Perry
But we're all storytellers in some way, shape or form, and I think it's all about connecting and sharing and emoting and yeah, and it's and I think this whole what I love, you know, we talked about it, you know, earlier is I kind of compartmentalized, oh, now I'm working with animators.

00:38:28:05 - 00:38:37:18
Sarah Perry
Oh, now I'm working with actors, you know. And I think that beginning of when careers sort of start to shift, it is a bit like that because you've got to retrain your brain to work with different people or work in a different way.

00:38:37:18 - 00:38:50:08
Sarah Perry
And it was very different to being an actor, but now it's so lovely to have those worlds and it did start, you know, ten years ago, but they're really fuzing a lot more, you know, live performance actors and digital.

00:38:51:09 - 00:39:10:10
Sarah Perry
And for me as a creative, that's really exciting. You know, you can do them separately, but to have them together is really great. And I think you can do a bad virtual performance quite easily, you know, and just have sort of, I don't know, like very wooden or very sort of static or soulless kind of performance.

00:39:10:10 - 00:39:24:04
Sarah Perry
But, you know, to get detail, to get new ones, to get, again, that connection with the audience, you know, that's a really, really good, interesting and good challenge to try and find in the virtual, I think the digital world.

00:39:24:21 - 00:39:42:01
Robin Fuller
Yeah. And I think a lot of that does come through movement. Yeah. Like through I can in my notes here they kind of I just thinking about motion capture which I'd like to talk to you a bit more about with some this like we understand human movement, like we recognize it so much.

00:39:42:01 - 00:40:02:04
Robin Fuller
It's almost like, you know, when you sort of see a face in the bark of a tree because our minds are looking for faces, you know, I think in a similar way to movement, if you see something that's been motion captured and then motion captured, well, even if it's an abstract like bunch of floating points, you recognize

00:40:02:04 - 00:40:12:22
Robin Fuller
that movement. Like we understand this is this movement is being driven by a real person. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's a really subtle, subtle, subtle nuances that come through.

00:40:13:22 - 00:40:29:13
Sarah Perry
And I think, you know, we move fast ways, babies, you know, we move, you know, we cry and move, you know, and movement is everywhere and ever present. And there's, you know, we're all doing it. And then but something weird happens, as I said, like when we start to perform or do presentations or zooms or whatever, we're

00:40:29:13 - 00:40:44:14
Sarah Perry
like, Oh, what's up? What are you doing? Why am I suppressing myself that way? Because at the moment, doing my hands. Yeah, exactly. And it's like the mind starts to like get involved, play tricks on us, and we've become sort of like, oh, you know, so wasn't aware of, you know, kind of what we're doing.

00:40:44:15 - 00:41:00:20
Sarah Perry
I think, you know, in motion capture, it's how it's developed is unbelievable. You know, it's how it's developed over a short space of time, really. And if you look at sort of the the developments of unreal and different softwares out there, it's just, you know, amazing what you can do.

00:41:01:00 - 00:41:10:12
Sarah Perry
And that's great for actors because they can now, you know, they can be others. They don't have to be a human. They can be, you know, of course I do. Circus and Planet of the Apes. But they could be a tree.

00:41:10:12 - 00:41:25:00
Sarah Perry
They could be a. Butterfly. They can be a gorilla, you know, they can be something other than they are. And that's really creatively inspiring, I think, for a performer as well as well as a viewer. Yeah.

00:41:25:15 - 00:41:38:09
Robin Fuller
So when you're kind of working in a motion capture project. Yeah, I can. I'm interested in that process. I can imagine. Does that sort of start again in the rehearsal room? Start with the kind of similar kind of process which just finding finding movements.

00:41:38:09 - 00:41:50:20
Sarah Perry
Yeah. Again, I think it you know, it depends. Project by project, you know, again, you can be kind of thrown in there as a movement director, like, okay, you have a day to sort out these moves. He is the actor, he the character, he the textbook go.

00:41:50:20 - 00:42:07:09
Sarah Perry
You know, it's like, oh my goodness, you know, again, that's okay. I understand that the industry has to work like that, but if you have that rehearsal time and you have time with the, you know, the actors, the performers, the dancers, the movies, whoever is embodying that particular character.

00:42:07:16 - 00:42:19:11
Sarah Perry
And you have time with the animation team as well. You know, what is their vision? What are the capabilities of that rig? You know, because we might want to do something, but actually how is that react, if that makes sense?

00:42:19:11 - 00:42:20:17
Sarah Perry
You know, like, you know what I'm saying?

00:42:20:22 - 00:42:34:15
Robin Fuller
I was just thinking that at what point do you do you get to see that direct relationship between the actor and the, you know, the CGI puppets, whatever it is, whether it's, you know, if it's human or non-human, it's especially if it's non-human.

00:42:34:15 - 00:42:34:24
Robin Fuller
I suppose.

00:42:35:02 - 00:42:35:09
Sarah Perry
That's.

00:42:35:09 - 00:42:37:05
Robin Fuller
A different kind of physiology.

00:42:37:06 - 00:42:53:07
Sarah Perry
Yeah. So sometimes, I mean, you know, you always this is the interesting thing because what reads really well and I say this quite a lot and I do kind of repeat myself, but what really what reads well in live action doesn't necessarily read well once we go into the, you know, the digital, the virtual.

00:42:53:17 - 00:43:08:06
Sarah Perry
So we could do all this amazing research and this amazing rehearsal. When we've come up with some details, you have to do that. You've got to stop that, you know, otherwise where do you start? And then you put on the suit, you go into the avatar of the, you know, the the character, for example.

00:43:08:16 - 00:43:22:05
Sarah Perry
And nothing reads, you know, it's not all that hard work is like, oh, my God, nothing really. You know, it doesn't translate for that particular body with that particular mass or that particular range of motion or weight or fur or whatever it might have.

00:43:22:15 - 00:43:42:03
Sarah Perry
So you have to go, okay, here. Here is what I wanted and intended. So now what do I need to shift to make it read on that particular character? And I think it's just a process. And if you have that time to work with that process, with the, you know, with the actor, myself and the actor, to

00:43:42:03 - 00:43:56:12
Sarah Perry
try and find that work with the work with the avatar, you you can find some really great stuff, you know, you can really dig deep, but if you're just thrown in on that day, okay, here's the performer, here's the character design.

00:43:56:12 - 00:44:15:16
Sarah Perry
Okay, we've got it rigged up. Go. Oh, you know, bound by what it can just do in that moment. And you haven't had any exploration time to find that other detail. Maybe when we could have dug a little deeper, you know, found some other things.

00:44:17:01 - 00:44:27:21
Sarah Perry
So sometimes you just thrown in at the deep end, which is fine. But I think, you know, it's being treated, you know, again, you know, putting this in context of the movement director and movement director is a director.

00:44:27:21 - 00:44:42:17
Sarah Perry
So it's giving them that time also to find their creativity within the project, to then spend that time with the performers or the animators or whomever you're collaborating with, not just an add on, you know, like to, to, to a project.

00:44:42:17 - 00:44:54:09
Sarah Perry
And I think this is voice of movement directors at the moment. And movement coaches are being heard, you know, a lot more. So really we're just sort of working alongside, I think, a director. Sometimes we are the director, but we're still of movement.

00:44:54:14 - 00:45:00:00
Sarah Perry
Like sometimes I'm directed projects, but you're still movement director because motion capture is perceived as movement.

00:45:00:15 - 00:45:01:14
Robin Fuller
I see.

00:45:01:21 - 00:45:02:21
Sarah Perry
Yeah. So, but you know.

00:45:03:03 - 00:45:06:22
Robin Fuller
It's storytelling. You know it's storytelling through movement. It's yeah. Same as anything.

00:45:06:22 - 00:45:21:07
Sarah Perry
Yeah. And you're, you know, you're still directing a performance. It just happens to be movement heavy, you know? Yeah, that needs a lot of movement. So yeah, I think the process or we always want more time, you know, we want more time, but time is money and we get it, you know?

00:45:21:17 - 00:45:27:07
Sarah Perry
But the more time we have, the better work we can do for the production and for the animators. And yeah.

00:45:27:07 - 00:45:38:23
Robin Fuller
I that's it's a familiar story. I think that's, you know, the same for many creative endeavors. You always just intimately if you're driven by kind of commercial factors, you're always just short on time, you know, and you always want more.

00:45:38:23 - 00:45:44:18
Robin Fuller
You always want to push things a little bit further and see what else can we do, how much how much further can we take this.

00:45:44:18 - 00:45:51:24
Sarah Perry
Yeah. And even with like the whole, the NDAs things, when you can't talk about things, sometimes you're not even showing the character designs of what you have to create.

00:45:52:09 - 00:45:53:02
Robin Fuller
Really.

00:45:53:16 - 00:46:05:10
Sarah Perry
Because it can be bonkers, you know, or maybe I'm shown, but I can't show the performers because maybe they're not featured enough, you know, yet to to see it. And I've had to pitch, you know, I mean, not so much now, I have to say.

00:46:05:11 - 00:46:17:11
Sarah Perry
But before, like, if they see it, they see who they're going to be, especially if I can see it. We're going. I do a much better job here rather than, you know, having one of these contracts where you can't see.

00:46:17:11 - 00:46:31:18
Sarah Perry
And I understand that the the carrot character may change or it's a top secret character, for example, but. Yeah. It's very odd and hard to try and create around not actually seeing the thing. Yeah.

00:46:31:24 - 00:46:36:19
Robin Fuller
Yeah. That must be so difficult. I can't even imagine how, how, how would you approach that? And.

00:46:37:00 - 00:46:51:00
Sarah Perry
Well, I know what I've done for some actors in the past. I've had to just create lots of references gathered. I've been able to see it, for example, but I've been able to, you know, just copy and paste different images, create a mood board or a reference board or character.

00:46:51:00 - 00:47:08:22
Sarah Perry
That's not the character, not giving anything away and saying words and using movement and traditional directing to direct it out of them for then to know where it's going, if that makes sense. And yeah, yeah, you just got to do what you can do the best you can.

00:47:09:17 - 00:47:16:22
Sarah Perry
I don't know. Have you been in that situation? I don't know. As an animator. I mean, I guess you're always creating the designs of the concept thoughts. So, you know, don't you?

00:47:16:24 - 00:47:30:20
Robin Fuller
Yeah. No, that's never I never been in that situation where I mean, we have we have situations where due to time restraints, we are kind of maybe we're creating a virtual world and we don't quite know what's happening in that virtual world.

00:47:31:11 - 00:47:40:05
Robin Fuller
You know, that decision hasn't yet been made. And so we're just sort of trying to account for all eventualities of what might might happen. And yeah, yeah.

00:47:40:13 - 00:47:50:19
Sarah Perry
It's not that I didn't like that was challenging in itself, isn't it? Because if you knew maybe what might happen, you can tweak it accordingly. I suppose you can, you know. Yeah.

00:47:51:09 - 00:47:51:18
Robin Fuller
Yeah.

00:47:52:05 - 00:48:02:02
Sarah Perry
Well, all good challenges. What are we doing in this industry now? It's all good, isn't it? That's why we're in it. Because the challenge is how do we solve that problem? Not problem, but the puzzle. Solving the puzzle.

00:48:02:07 - 00:48:03:23
Robin Fuller
Yeah. Yeah. If it was easy, we wouldn't.

00:48:04:05 - 00:48:06:12
Sarah Perry
Absolutely moaning about something else.

00:48:16:15 - 00:48:27:06
Robin Fuller
There's another thing. It also there's lots of other things I want to ask you about. But one thing in particular is some of the sort of the more, I guess like academic theories and practices that kind of come into this.

00:48:27:16 - 00:48:42:02
Robin Fuller
So you mentioned love an earlier and love is something that often I guess I've when I've been especially in working with theater theater people theater practitioners they often you know, they mentioned loving and kind of not knowing each other.

00:48:42:09 - 00:48:53:10
Robin Fuller
And I never know what they're talking about. So I don't know where it's a big subject. But can you give me, like a crash course or like, tell me what I need to know to sound like I understand.

00:48:53:21 - 00:49:15:10
Sarah Perry
Oh, that's so funny. Yeah, absolutely. So loving is a is, you know, a practitioner of many. Right. You know, that that at drama school. So for, you know, actors theater practitioners get introduced him. But I do have to say there's a big world of lobban albarn's work that doesn't get shared.

00:49:15:16 - 00:49:35:12
Sarah Perry
There's normally a kind of percentage because of time again in trainings as well. So there's there's a lot there. So Laban Rudolf Laban was an Austria Hungarian dance theorist who was an architect and was just fascinated with movement, the theory of movement.

00:49:35:14 - 00:49:49:08
Sarah Perry
And I won't go into it too much because there's lessons within lessons here. But he began to become interested in areas such as, you know, understanding the body, you know, your hair as a body. But why does it move that way?

00:49:49:08 - 00:50:05:13
Sarah Perry
You know, how what what does this body do? How does this body differ to this body? You know, looking at its skeletal structure, looking at proportions, looking at anatomy in a way, and just like, okay, what is this body that we're about to move, you know, whether it's a human?

00:50:05:13 - 00:50:17:17
Sarah Perry
And he was working more with dancers at that time, but it's sort of his work has been contemporaries, you know, for actors or for animators or for even those that are just studying movement. And so he was interested in the body.

00:50:18:07 - 00:50:29:18
Sarah Perry
It was interested in efforts and dynamics of how we move. So it's not just what we move with, like, well, how do we move? How do we move with weight? How do we move with time? How do we move with flow?

00:50:29:18 - 00:50:51:16
Sarah Perry
How do we move with space? You know, the directions of space that we move and rhythms, different rhythms and tempos and flows of rhythm. So just looking at movement from that perspective, looking at it from space, so our surroundings, you know, the room that I'm in, what I'm sitting on, who I'm talking to, whether it's someone on

00:50:51:16 - 00:51:06:03
Sarah Perry
Zoom or someone in the actual room is going to change. My body language is going to change how I see it, how I express, what body parts move depending on what's in my space, who's in my space influences how I use my space, if that makes sense.

00:51:06:14 - 00:51:20:15
Sarah Perry
And then another category was shape. So really looking at the shapes, the postural changes. So just by changing a little bit of a shape, whether it's the shoulder, the head, the nose, it changes the perception of what the viewer is looking at and what they are seeing.

00:51:21:01 - 00:51:42:13
Sarah Perry
So I've just mentioned four broad categories of body, effort, space and shape. There's other categories at play, but it's looking at all of these aspects of movement and how they weave and intertwine together to make a whole. Because we can't have a body without a dynamic or we can't create a shape without a body, or we can't

00:51:42:13 - 00:52:02:23
Sarah Perry
have time without space. You know, you can't kind of they're all they might be a dominant factor that we're observing, but they're all working into playing together. So he really took movement, not a science, I suppose it was his architectural background as well, but he looked at sort of the creative side of it.

00:52:02:23 - 00:52:19:24
Sarah Perry
How can I use these elements to create dance and how could I use these aspects to understand how efficient workers could be in effect? I was doing studies on that. You know, how can I get my work is to work more efficiently, tell them to use lightweight in such a strong way, or tell them to use direct

00:52:19:24 - 00:52:31:21
Sarah Perry
space instead of indirect space, for example. And then I guess, you know, over the years his work has been studied and like Stanislavski, other practitioners, you know, written a lot of books, there's a lot of resources out there.

00:52:31:21 - 00:52:47:12
Sarah Perry
And then contemporaries have taken some of his work and interrogated it more and rejected some things and added some other things. So there's there's more to it than what was, but it's a really good framework and a really good way for movement directors.

00:52:47:20 - 00:52:56:14
Sarah Perry
I think also animators for actors, dancers or creatives to just have a language to communicate with and be on the same page.

00:52:56:14 - 00:52:57:00
Robin Fuller
Going.

00:52:57:09 - 00:53:14:13
Sarah Perry
And have the bones to maybe improvise from or create from. You didn't invent all these things. You didn't invent weights or time or space or shape, you know. But what he did was put an intention of trying to observe that or.

00:53:14:15 - 00:53:17:15
Sarah Perry
Try to understand that on the creative process.

00:53:17:24 - 00:53:18:21
Robin Fuller
I can't go in.

00:53:18:24 - 00:53:22:13
Sarah Perry
I don't know if that makes any sense, Robin, but that's how it does. It does it.

00:53:23:13 - 00:53:34:14
Robin Fuller
Again, I'm aware it's a very big topic. So it's almost like a a framework. I suppose so. Like I. Yeah, you mentioned that idea of like a shared language, a shared understanding of, of, of an approach to look at.

00:53:34:18 - 00:53:49:20
Sarah Perry
And I think every practitioner, you know, we all going to come from very different backgrounds. That's just one way of working that I love. And I like Fuzing, Stanislavski and Robin together because I still want the truth. I want the inner world, you know, I want to understand all the deep psychology of a character because that drives

00:53:49:20 - 00:54:05:10
Sarah Perry
the external qualities. So you always need the inner outer conversation. But other practitioners might come from a different in, you know, inspired practice, you know, a different school of thought in terms of looking at looking at movement is just a way.

00:54:05:11 - 00:54:13:23
Sarah Perry
It's a common way, but it's not the only way. And I think, you know, I know that I tend to use it but use other influences as well.

00:54:14:17 - 00:54:22:01
Robin Fuller
Yeah. Okay, cool. Now that's so nice. Some people, people I mentioned out of not knowing me as well, body.

00:54:22:09 - 00:54:23:18
Sarah Perry
Space and shape say that.

00:54:24:17 - 00:54:25:12
Robin Fuller
Space in shape.

00:54:25:14 - 00:54:29:06
Sarah Perry
That's the good way to remember best in shape.

00:54:29:08 - 00:54:29:17
Robin Fuller
Nice.

00:54:29:21 - 00:54:30:04
Sarah Perry
Okay.

00:54:31:20 - 00:54:55:19
Robin Fuller
Thank you. I'm aware of time, but there's one more thing I would like to talk to you about, which is it's kind of like circling back to what you mentioned at the start, that the yoga practice and the kind of I guess of wellbeing practices and combining those with a creativity practice, it's just something that I'm quite

00:54:56:00 - 00:55:07:19
Robin Fuller
interested in myself. I also have a yoga practice regularly meditate as well and sort of the yeah, the kind of commonalities that you might have found between having a creative practice and a wellbeing practice.

00:55:07:19 - 00:55:08:01
Sarah Perry
Yeah.

00:55:08:14 - 00:55:12:16
Robin Fuller
Do you think there is a other two things that exist separately that you think they have to cross over.

00:55:12:17 - 00:55:27:02
Sarah Perry
I think everything crosses over, doesn't it? It's, you know, it's where, you know, again, it's like life is a puzzle. And I think, you know, and as I said before, when you're young, you know, oh, there's this fit, this, this, this bit like, no, they all work together, like weaving, having conversations and weave in and out of

00:55:27:02 - 00:55:41:13
Sarah Perry
what is more dominant at any particular time. You know, for me, wellbeing and I chose yoga. It doesn't have to be yoga, it could be polarities, it could be, you know, I mean, dance. I still do dance as well, but it could be, you know, going to the gym.

00:55:41:14 - 00:55:59:02
Sarah Perry
It could be shadow boxing. It could be whatever anyone chooses. You know, yoga just works for me because it's more holistic body breath, mind for me to and also how I work with others to create. Well, I think we need to be well and I think we can be our best creative selves when we feel better.

00:55:59:10 - 00:56:14:10
Sarah Perry
And I know there's all this like, oh, when you're going in a dark place and you know life is happening, you can create well, of course you can because stuff is inspiring that. But I think for longevity and sustainability, we are at our best when we feel our best.

00:56:14:22 - 00:56:32:05
Sarah Perry
And so that, you know, I think I have it on my website, you know, Shapes in Motion, for example, is where wellbeing and creativity meet. I guess that you can really separate, you know, and I always do and warm ups with with actors I work with or even when, you know, working with animators sometimes we do a

00:56:32:05 - 00:56:47:22
Sarah Perry
little bit of a warm up, might not be a full on yoga class, but there's some meditation, there's some breath, there's some movement, there's functional movement, there's expressive movement. I think most choreographers and movement directors have their own practice.

00:56:47:22 - 00:57:06:00
Sarah Perry
Again, it might be yoga, it might be plateaus, it might be something else, because you have to, one, understand the body from more of a functional perspective bones, muscles, joints, etc. But you need to warm up your team and you need to have a practice from which to launch from.

00:57:06:00 - 00:57:16:20
Sarah Perry
You know, with that I couldn't be seen without my yoga. I need it. You know, for me, I don't do as long practices as I used to. You know, it used to be right. I need to do my hour.

00:57:16:20 - 00:57:29:01
Sarah Perry
I need to try and do that every day. It's funny, you know, the older I've got, they're shorter, but perhaps I get deeper, quicker, if that makes sense. I know what I need. Like I know that I need to just meditate, you know, that day.

00:57:29:02 - 00:57:39:00
Sarah Perry
I know I need to just sit and breathe. Perhaps I know that I might need to just focus on my lower back. I know I need to twist and just move things. I know I need to maybe do some openings.

00:57:39:00 - 00:57:55:08
Sarah Perry
I need more energy or I need to do some more closing to contain my energy. So I think I just know a bit more about what I need and can and can have a shorter practice to maybe support that on that particular day where I used to have a much stronger practice.

00:57:56:10 - 00:58:08:09
Sarah Perry
Six in the morning sun salutations and there's all good in that is all great. I love it. You know, it's where I started, you know, with Ashtanga. But I've found that my practice has changed. Time mostly doesn't have I don't have the time to do it all.

00:58:08:09 - 00:58:22:06
Sarah Perry
But yeah, the two go hand in hand for me. That was my long way of answering your question, I. Sorry about this. I can't separate them. Yeah, I think it's important to especially, you know, life is complicated enough.

00:58:22:06 - 00:58:44:11
Sarah Perry
We need a practice to to give us supports. And yoga for me is a very supportive practice to help maintain the, you know, as, you know, creative we're working on productions or projects is quite a crazy world where you don't know what your schedule is the next day, let alone the next week, next month, you know, and

00:58:44:14 - 00:58:53:01
Sarah Perry
so much fluctuations and changes that if it didn't have some sort of stability, I would go bonkers. I think.

00:58:53:10 - 00:59:12:12
Robin Fuller
Yeah, yeah. Because I was thinking as as I kind of thinking around this, I think things like yoga and pilates. I did ballet for a while. They were quite prescriptive in terms of like there are set patterns, setting movement patterns, set poses and this kind of to a certain extent you're doing it right or wrong.

00:59:12:18 - 00:59:29:05
Robin Fuller
Yeah. Which at first glance could kind of seem like, you know, there's no room for creativity within that for maybe actually that's giving you, like you said, that kind of stability that's almost kind of giving you an extra space where you can be stable and you can follow kind of follow patterns.

00:59:29:05 - 00:59:29:10
Sarah Perry
Yeah.

00:59:30:02 - 00:59:34:01
Robin Fuller
Which opens up the space in other areas where you're being where you are being more creative.

00:59:34:02 - 00:59:47:20
Sarah Perry
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, even, you know, one of the one of the things we work on, same in yoga is stability versus mobility. You know, if we're going to be mobile, it's to say with the upper arm lifting it up, we need to be stable somewhere to allow that mobility to happen for mobile everywhere

00:59:47:21 - 01:00:02:00
Sarah Perry
we would be, you know, we wouldn't have any rootedness or groundedness, you know, through the feet, through the legs. Same thing in life, you know, to enable us to be flexible on mobile, we need stability as a stable basis from which to then be flexible from.

01:00:02:11 - 01:00:16:24
Sarah Perry
But I also think, you know, bringing in a bit of playfulness and creativity into your yoga practice, for example, is fun too. Oh, let's do a downward dog. And, you know, in a way is interesting what you said, you know, because you're like, okay, there is a maybe a right or wrong in terms of form, you know

01:00:16:24 - 01:00:30:17
Sarah Perry
, in terms of traditional technique. But what about if I just played with it a little bit? What about if I moved with it? What about if I brought some of that creativity into more of a functional setting? And that can be interesting, too.

01:00:30:17 - 01:00:43:22
Sarah Perry
And liberating for the mind, liberating for the breath, because you're not focused on getting it right, which is, you know, some classes you just feel like a girl getting told off. I'm doing the wrong, wrong. He told me, like what was right.

01:00:43:22 - 01:00:57:19
Sarah Perry
You know, it's like, I don't know. And we're all different structurally. So is there a one way to do it? So that's another conversation in itself, you know, and why I love love yoga therapy, because you're working with an individual rather than a, you know, a big group.

01:00:57:20 - 01:01:16:09
Sarah Perry
So you're working to what they would need. But yeah, I think that can be playfulness in yoga. But I think that structure, that routine stability of yoga, for example, could be other things as well, really helps to support a creative sound, all for wellbeing, to help support, you know, creativity definitely.

01:01:16:12 - 01:01:33:03
Robin Fuller
Helps think, right. I think you can be a tortured artist for a little while. Yeah. You know, I think everyone is everyone who is creative has probably had a period in their life where they've been struggling and they have through that struggle, they output something that has has a value to it.

01:01:33:10 - 01:01:34:03
Robin Fuller
But yeah, that's.

01:01:34:11 - 01:01:51:23
Sarah Perry
Mean sometimes unintentionally, intentionally. We put ourselves in those places, I think, to feed us in a weird way, you know, feed us creatively. I'm not saying everyone and I'm not saying all the time, but I think, you know, because it does tap into something interesting creatively, but we don't want to advocate that, you know, but it's you

01:01:51:23 - 01:02:05:18
Sarah Perry
know, I think the world is finding tools like, no, you don't have to go deep, dark and deep to get there. You can do this light and, you know, still structured. It's still there, but it can still dig deep like meditation, as you said, if you want to go there, let's go there, you know, but in a

01:02:05:18 - 01:02:13:22
Sarah Perry
safer way rather than going down a sort of a yeah. A darker route. Yeah. We've all been there. Yeah.

01:02:14:15 - 01:02:32:02
Robin Fuller
Absolutely. Yeah. But also kind of bringing back to what you mentioned earlier about playfulness. I think within within yoga and within creativity, it's one of the things that I, I really value throughout our processes and especially with when you're collaborating with people being able to just find a little bit of space for playfulness within the work.

01:02:32:07 - 01:02:39:15
Robin Fuller
So you want to do the work, you take the work very seriously, but if you can find a way to be playful and have fun with it, and I think it's that's where the magic.

01:02:40:03 - 01:02:49:11
Sarah Perry
Stuff, that's why we're all in this. We're in this creative industry as kids. We were playing I was playing characters, I'm sure, you know, like, you know, I wasn't I'm not an artist. I can't draw like you guys.

01:02:49:11 - 01:03:02:05
Sarah Perry
But, you know, I'm sure it's like you're just playing your drawing, sketching or we were dancing or in the playground, making plays and dances and all sorts. And we forgot along the way sometimes that we got into this because we love to play.

01:03:02:19 - 01:03:14:12
Sarah Perry
And anything creative I think needs to, it has to. It must have that playfulness and fun. It can get too serious sometimes. You know, you work hard, but you need you need that playfulness. Yeah. Sure.

01:03:14:21 - 01:03:41:10
Robin Fuller
Absolutely. I couldn't agree. So that was Sarah Perry. So great to talk to her. As I mentioned in the conversation, I've been aware of her work for a while, but some over the years it seemed to kind of become bigger in a way with more kind of commonalities in the things that I'm interested in, but only really

01:03:41:10 - 01:03:55:07
Robin Fuller
beginning to scrape the surface of exploring movements and storytelling through movements and the kind of commonalities that I'm finding between a dance practice and linking it to animation and all of these other things. It's really interesting and exciting stuff.

01:03:55:17 - 01:04:12:08
Robin Fuller
I think a really good example of that is these kind of parallel ideas of all of the storytelling that goes into informing movement that also goes into character design. I used to give a lecture on semiotics of character design back when I was lecturing, and yeah, it's fascinating.

01:04:12:08 - 01:04:28:00
Robin Fuller
All the little kind of details that you put into a character design, the shape language, the kind of little details that you can pack in to tell a story about the background of a character. And from talking to Sarah, then, obviously all of that stuff is also informing the character's movements.

01:04:28:13 - 01:04:41:09
Robin Fuller
There's some real commonalities there. Open to talk to an actual character designer soon, so perhaps we can have a little bit of a crossover there and kind of compare notes. I think this is one of those conversations I'm going to be quoting to people and probably get on the nose about.

01:04:41:09 - 01:04:55:14
Robin Fuller
But I don't. I get excited about ideas. So huge thanks to Sarah for taking the time to speak to me. Thanks as always, to Simon Roth for the music and some. Yeah, that's it for me for now. I wish you health and happiness in days filled with creativity and playfulness.

01:04:55:21 - 01:04:56:14
Robin Fuller
Thanks for listening.