12. Creative Extremes - Music Production & All Things Metal with Eyal Levi

This episode is a conversation with the music producer, guitarist, and creative entrepreneur, Eyal Levi.

We talk about Eyal's work as CEO of URM academy and of riffhard, the worlds biggest online school for producers working with heavy music and metal guitar players respectively. We discuss what a music producer actually does, creative leadership and the events that led up to Eyal picking up a guitar again to reform DAATH after not playing for literally years... Plus a whole bunch more.

Contains a light sprinkling of swears.

URM academy urm.academy
Riffhard www.riffhard.com
DAATH on facebook
DAATH on instagram

and you can find me on instagram @_robin_fuller_

Transcript

00:00:15:17 - 00:00:49:17
Robin Fuller:
Hello. My name is Robin Fuller and this is Hatching Crows, a podcast about creativity and creative people. In each episode, I talk to someone from different areas of the arts or creative industry and try to find out all about their processes, their outlooks and philosophies on creativity and really just explore what it means to make a living and make a life based around a creative practice. Today I'm talking to Eyal Levi. Eyal is a guy with many strengths, his bio all centered around metal music. He's a music producer and audio engineer. He's the CEO of U.R.M. Academy, which is the world's biggest online school for producers working with heavy music.

00:00:50:13 - 00:01:09:09
Robin Fuller:
Also, the CEO of Riff Art, which is an online school for metal guitar players. He's a podcast host and also the principal songwriter and founder of the band. doThe topics of conversation include creative ambition, what a music producer actually does creative leadership and the events that led up to hell picking up a guitar again after not playing for years, plus a bunch more. Enjoy. 

00:01:09:09 - 00:01:52:16
Robin Fuller:
So I have a confession to make.

00:01:52:21 - 00:01:53:05
Eyal Levi:
Yes.

00:01:53:21 - 00:01:55:15
Robin Fuller:
I really messed up the timezones.

00:01:56:06 - 00:01:56:15
Eyal Levi:
Okay.

00:01:57:14 - 00:02:00:19
Robin Fuller:
I got an app on my phone. You said you're in Eastern Time, right?

00:02:00:22 - 00:02:01:06
Eyal Levi:
I am?

00:02:01:17 - 00:02:03:09
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, this app's lying to me.

00:02:03:17 - 00:02:19:08
Eyal Levi:
Oh, okay. That I know. Why? Because sometimes there's this thing called ADT instead of SD. And so the time difference between the UK and the U.S. will shift an hour. It's really confusing.

00:02:19:09 - 00:02:23:20
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, that's what caught me out. But it's all good where I don't like to introduce people.

00:02:24:03 - 00:02:24:09
Eyal Levi:
Okay.

00:02:25:22 - 00:02:32:21
Robin Fuller:
Because of this confusion with the time zone, I haven't actually were in an interaction. So, first of all, hey, everyone, we're talking to Ali Velshi.

00:02:33:01 - 00:02:33:20
Eyal Levi:
Thanks for having me.

00:02:33:22 - 00:02:48:18
Robin Fuller:
Hey, thank you, man. Thank you for. Yeah, funny time. See, as a few things I wanna talk to you about. Obviously, the. The u r m stuff, the refined stuff, this kind of creative, entrepreneurial spirit that you seem to have, and the drive that seems to be kind of pushing through all of those things.

00:02:48:21 - 00:02:58:11
Robin Fuller:
The podcasting, obviously. Maybe you can give me some pointers because I know you've got a lot of hours. I was in there. Was it seven, seven years that you've been doing that longer?

00:02:58:16 - 00:03:02:01
Eyal Levi:
I think I recorded my first podcast in 2013.

00:03:02:08 - 00:03:19:21
Robin Fuller:
Wow. Okay. Okay, cool. The engineering side of things as well, obviously. And also the big, big news, which is the Duff reunion, right? Yup. In fact, I think to me at least, that's the big news. So and it kind of seems like the most imminent kind of freshest thing.

00:03:19:21 - 00:03:20:24
Robin Fuller:
So is it cool if we start that?

00:03:21:05 - 00:03:24:03
Eyal Levi:
Sure. Sure. Let's start with Duluth. Why not?

00:03:24:10 - 00:03:34:03
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, absolutely. So, like, if we establish the context, right? So Duff is a heavy metal band that you where you play guitar. You are the principal songwriter, I believe.

00:03:34:04 - 00:03:38:17
Eyal Levi:
Yes. Founder, principal, songwriter, guitar, guitar player.

00:03:38:23 - 00:03:43:06
Robin Fuller:
And you guys were mainly active kind of around the early 2000, so. Right.

00:03:43:09 - 00:04:02:10
Eyal Levi:
Yeah. So I formed it in 99 and we got signed to Roadrunner in about 2006. So put out three records on Roadrunner and Century Media between 2006 and 2010. And then, you know, did the whole thing during Headbangers Ball like, you know, the whole thing.

00:04:02:17 - 00:04:03:13
Robin Fuller:
And that's shot.

00:04:03:13 - 00:04:04:17
Eyal Levi:
A sick video with you.

00:04:05:06 - 00:04:15:13
Robin Fuller:
Yeah. And so that's how we came to kind of have a little bit contact. And so when did when did that all kind of go? Did you call it a hiatus or do you just say, no, this is a firm stop.

00:04:15:22 - 00:04:16:21
Robin Fuller:
This is the end of Duff.

00:04:17:06 - 00:04:34:12
Eyal Levi:
It was a hiatus that I thought was the end of somewhere at the beginning of 2011, it was pretty clear that it was over. And so I never thought I'd ever do it again. We it was we were just having a bad time, basically.

00:04:35:05 - 00:05:01:17
Eyal Levi:
It was so much work. So much work. And so basically when when a band is your priority, it kind of takes over your entire life. So there's a limited amount of time that you can do it before you have to move on, basically, especially if it's taking if it's taking up all your resources all your time and

00:05:02:03 - 00:05:04:11
Eyal Levi:
you're just getting older in the meantime.

00:05:04:19 - 00:05:15:11
Robin Fuller:
Sure. Yeah. Okay. And so sorry. That was 2011, you said. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then so fast forward to 20, 22 and you up on the way.

00:05:15:24 - 00:05:34:08
Eyal Levi:
Yeah. New songs to first. And yeah, I did not expect to do it again. It's a weird reason for why I decided to. I herniated a few discs in my back and I last.

00:05:34:08 - 00:05:39:05
Robin Fuller:
Sorry. I'm sorry for laughing. I shouldn't. Oh, it's okay. Horrible, horrible things to happen. But it's not what I thought the story was. No.

00:05:40:02 - 00:05:58:09
Eyal Levi:
So. Well, okay. So I had been working out a lot and injured myself and then suddenly couldn't. And people who work out all the time know what happens when you have to stop. Your brain goes crazy. So, you know, you develop all kinds of anxiety.

00:05:58:10 - 00:06:14:06
Eyal Levi:
If you're prone to depression, you're going to get depressed. You're gonna have all this nervous energy. So I didn't know what to do with myself being basically couch bound. So I figured, why don't I play guitar? Because I haven't played in seven years.

00:06:15:02 - 00:06:16:06
Robin Fuller:
No. So you'd like. No.

00:06:16:17 - 00:06:35:14
Eyal Levi:
I completely. I thought when I started u r m I threw myself completely into your because I think we can talk about this more when we talk about the entrepreneurial side of things. But I think that the entrepreneur's curse is to try to do too many things at the same time.

00:06:35:24 - 00:07:00:07
Eyal Levi:
And I wanted you r m to succeed, so i made the decision to put everything else aside. That's why I think also that so many businesses. Are run by professional musicians or producers fail. And not all. But in general they fail because they're not willing to scale back on production, which is understandable.

00:07:00:08 - 00:07:15:08
Eyal Levi:
But I was okay with it. So anyhow, I didn't think I was ever going to do it again and had such a bad experience with the band that I didn't want to do it again. But yeah, so I was couch bound due to the injury.

00:07:15:09 - 00:07:33:21
Eyal Levi:
It was really, really bad. One day I woke up and could barely even walk because it's the sadness that presses against the nerve that controls your legs. It was it was bad. And so, yeah, like I said, I figured I need to do something physical with this energy.

00:07:34:02 - 00:07:51:10
Eyal Levi:
Why don't I start playing guitar again? And one thing led to another. And here we are about to really start music again. But yeah, I basically got back into guitar, like all in, and it took me several months to get my playing back.

00:07:52:09 - 00:07:55:11
Eyal Levi:
It was very, very weird being a beginner all over again.

00:07:55:23 - 00:08:07:24
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, I was going to ask about like, you know, picking up a guitar because, you know, I mean, I've seen you play. I know the music you write. There's a level of, you know, virtuosity there. I would say to then to like not touch for seven years and come back.

00:08:07:24 - 00:08:11:22
Robin Fuller:
That must have been like how the fingers must have been slow. Right.

00:08:11:23 - 00:08:13:00
Eyal Levi:
Fingers didn't work.

00:08:13:06 - 00:08:13:10
Robin Fuller:
Mm.

00:08:13:19 - 00:08:38:16
Eyal Levi:
It didn't work. And not just that, it wasn't just the fingers, the brain, like all my musical sophistication was just gone, gone like out the window. And so there was a long period of basically using riff hard. I used to riff hard the way that we tell people to get better.

00:08:38:16 - 00:09:00:07
Eyal Levi:
I used it religiously and then I also took some lessons and I analyzed my own music and. And I got like I started relearning and reanalyzing some of the original dot stuff and with the idea of basically retraining myself into my own style.

00:09:01:06 - 00:09:10:03
Eyal Levi:
And within a few months, riffs started to come out that were shitty and but I just kept going. I just kept going.

00:09:10:03 - 00:09:18:09
Robin Fuller:
And I. That's a big thing, is it? It's like, do the stuff, this kind of rubbish, but just keep going and keep pushing through it I think for any and absolutely creativity. Yeah.

00:09:18:24 - 00:09:38:17
Eyal Levi:
Yeah. My friend Kevin Thrasher, who's a great engineer and songwriter, he calls it writing for writing for the trash. And, you know, it's you take away the expectation of trying to write some popular or great song. You're just writing with the idea that you're going to throw it away.

00:09:38:21 - 00:09:58:13
Eyal Levi:
And that takes away the pressure. You can do whatever. A lot of people stop themselves because of the expectations they put on it. But if you're writing for the trash, the fuck cares what you do. So I wrote for the Trash, something like 15 songs, and by somewhere around number ten, I started to sound a little bit

00:09:58:13 - 00:10:06:22
Eyal Levi:
more like me. Somewhere around number 15, I was like, Okay. We've got Darth material, so it just went from there. Hmm.

00:10:06:24 - 00:10:13:19
Robin Fuller:
Amazing. And so I kind of interested, like you said, you kind of like going back and, like, really kind of like analyzing your old music.

00:10:14:06 - 00:10:14:13
Eyal Levi:
Yeah.

00:10:15:01 - 00:10:24:13
Robin Fuller:
What was that process like? And, like, what's your relationship with that music like now? Do you do you have a different approach or is it just a case of kind of rediscovering that initial approach that you had in the first place?

00:10:25:13 - 00:10:44:12
Eyal Levi:
Well, the original stuff had never been transcribed. Like the stuff that well, none of it had ever really been transcribed, but especially the pre record label material, the stuff that made me think that it was a good idea to pursue the band had never been transcribed.

00:10:44:12 - 00:11:00:14
Eyal Levi:
So I figured, well, start by getting it transcribed. And then start learning some of the riffs and start analyzing some of the harmonies and figuring out how the sounds work together and and just kind of go through the catalog.

00:11:00:16 - 00:11:24:00
Eyal Levi:
I learned stuff all throughout the catalog and it helped me basically re re up on my tendencies, I guess. Mm hmm. Because I wanted the new music to be very much rooted in the old music. And I want when people hear the new material, they're going to know it's dark.

00:11:24:03 - 00:11:37:07
Eyal Levi:
If you're a death fan, you know what a death riff is. You're going to hear it and you're going to know exactly what it is. And it was super important for me that that the DNA of the project is intact.

00:11:37:18 - 00:11:50:23
Eyal Levi:
And so my relationship to it is I don't know how to really answer that other than to say that I'm not in the same place that I was when I wrote any of that stuff, but I'm still me.

00:11:51:10 - 00:12:04:05
Eyal Levi:
And so, you know, it's just kind of like learning how to ride a bike all over again. It's a very something very, very familiar that even if you take a decade away from it, it's in, you know.

00:12:04:06 - 00:12:11:04
Robin Fuller:
Basically, yeah, that core, the core, the kind of yeah. Whatever it was that drove you to write those riffs and write those songs in the first place, that's still intact, right?

00:12:11:13 - 00:12:31:23
Eyal Levi:
Totally. As well as the the tendencies towards taking riffs in certain directions or layering things certain ways, it's all there. And that's actually a lot of people in your room and riff hard. And, you know, I've been asked this question a lot is how do you develop your own sound, you know, as a mixer or a guitar

00:12:31:24 - 00:12:55:08
Eyal Levi:
player or songwriter just comes up a lot. And I'm sure that it's the same with videography or photography or anything creative. And there's probably a gaggle of people who are wondering how to do something unique. And my thoughts are, you don't need to worry about that if you just need to worry about getting good because you're already

00:12:55:09 - 00:13:15:20
Eyal Levi:
you. So your style, your personality, that, that's all you can do. You can imitate somebody else successfully. I mean, you can try, but that's still you imitating somebody else. So my style is there. The idea was just to remove the cobwebs and and reactivated.

00:13:15:20 - 00:13:33:07
Eyal Levi:
But my personality is my personality. And and I just took my own advice, which is I don't need to really try to develop who I am. It's already there. I need to do is like I get those neural pathways active again and the muscle memory.

00:13:33:18 - 00:13:47:04
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, that's I don't know. There's something, something really interesting to me about that idea of kind of going back to a place you are creatively, you know, like a decent chunk of time ago, but like, you know, kind of with a slightly fresh mindset and with all these extra things that you've learned.

00:13:47:11 - 00:13:49:07
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, that sounds like a really interesting process to go through.

00:13:49:07 - 00:14:14:07
Eyal Levi:
Yeah. Well, especially considering the years of talking to great people through the podcasts or through the courses or anything, or even my years as a producer, I have a lot of insight from really amazing people on workflow and how they've gotten better, what what they've done, like all these things, tricks they've used and techniques, you know?

00:14:14:08 - 00:14:15:08
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, that's great.

00:14:15:19 - 00:14:16:20
Eyal Levi:
Yeah, it's all rubbed off.

00:14:16:24 - 00:14:29:06
Robin Fuller:
Yeah. Yeah, I similarly I, well, I mean I used to play in like a bunch of punk bands and hot comments back in the day. And I haven't been, I haven't played, I've barely play guitar every now and then I pick up the acoustic and like, you know, play some campfire songs or whatever.

00:14:29:17 - 00:14:42:17
Robin Fuller:
But I've barely played in years, but just recently started talking to a friend of mine about, you know, getting something going again. And it's, yeah, it's an interesting place. And I start kind of using that little, that little bit of brain I kind of put to one side for a while and kind of it's still there.

00:14:42:22 - 00:14:44:09
Robin Fuller:
Go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:14:44:15 - 00:14:45:06
Eyal Levi:
Have to use it.

00:14:45:11 - 00:14:56:13
Robin Fuller:
Yeah. It's exciting and interesting. This is kind of like I guess for the fans really. But of the original lineup or the other most recent lineup, who's who's involved with these new, new songs?

00:14:56:24 - 00:15:18:02
Eyal Levi:
Me and Sean, I. So here's the thing, though, with da. Da has always been focused on my songwriting. It's kind of just, you know, there's a lineup that people know best and they're great. They're phenomenal musicians and I love all the stuff that we did together.

00:15:18:16 - 00:15:25:17
Eyal Levi:
But death was never supposed to be like, well, a band like Korn or something.

00:15:25:17 - 00:15:26:16
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, go where?

00:15:26:22 - 00:15:40:02
Eyal Levi:
Even though Korn have a different drummer now, but like a band like Korn, where it's the same people the whole time, I always saw it more like Steely Dan or Opeth or I.

00:15:40:02 - 00:15:46:04
Robin Fuller:
Was thinking, Next Nick Cave in the Bad Seeds. So you've got like Nick Cave is the constant and the bad seeds kind of come in and out or around him or.

00:15:46:13 - 00:15:57:13
Eyal Levi:
Something like that, or the queens of the Stone Age. You know, Josh, he's had all kinds of amazing people. I mean, he had fucking Dave Grohl in his band for a while. But it's Josh's band.

00:15:57:21 - 00:15:58:16
Robin Fuller:
Yes. Yeah.

00:15:59:08 - 00:16:25:01
Eyal Levi:
But he gets great musicians in there and they shine and they always do great stuff. But it's still Josh's thing. And Duff is and has always kind of been like that. And so after this many years apart. I just kind of ended up in different places in our lives, and not everyone is amenable to doing it, which

00:16:25:01 - 00:16:42:18
Eyal Levi:
is fine. Everybody got the option. It was up to them. And no hard feelings either. Because you can't just can't just bring something this intense back from the dead after 12 years and just be like, okay, drop everything.

00:16:42:18 - 00:17:09:01
Eyal Levi:
Just come play my songs. It's, you know, I get it. I totally get it. And I totally respect it. I totally respect those guys and think they're phenomenal. But the new people that have involved are phenomenal, too. And I think when people hear what's going to come out, they're going to realize that it's death.

00:17:09:10 - 00:17:18:03
Robin Fuller:
Yeah. Like you say, if that that core that core identity of your songwriting is is there, then that's that's the thing. Is that what you say? That's the thing that people will latch on to?

00:17:18:07 - 00:17:33:11
Eyal Levi:
Well, hopefully. And, you know, I've always I've always seen it as, like I said, one of those types of bands. And I always just wanted to have unbelievable musicians around and kind of give them a platform to shine through it.

00:17:33:16 - 00:17:42:24
Eyal Levi:
And also just. Have great players because it requires that it's pretty over the top with with the new lineup. It's pretty insane.

00:17:43:05 - 00:17:50:15
Robin Fuller:
Uh huh. That's great. Do you have any plans to tour or, like, like live like shows on the horizon, or is it kind of just recording projects at the moment?

00:17:50:19 - 00:18:10:01
Eyal Levi:
We're going to take that as it comes. So because, you know, we could put out the first batch of songs and nobody cares, you know, show at all. And then what? You know, we're not going to get in a van and go tour for 30 people.

00:18:10:01 - 00:18:27:07
Eyal Levi:
Yeah, yeah. Those days are over. So there has to be a reason to continue. And we feel very, very strongly about these songs we're about to put out that, you know, people don't like this. I there's nothing I can do beyond like that.

00:18:27:07 - 00:18:44:03
Eyal Levi:
Like, if you don't like that, you're not going to like death. So we're going to see how this goes. And if it goes well, we're going to do more. And that will lead to tours and festival shows and, you know, everything that bands do.

00:18:44:21 - 00:18:49:16
Eyal Levi:
So we're just going to we're just going to take it as it comes, but we're open to it.

00:18:49:22 - 00:19:02:23
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, it's exciting stuff, man, I think. Yes. It seems to me like a a good place to be creatively. Yeah. Exciting. And I think you've been quite kind of you've been sharing a lot of stuff about the the recording process and the songwriting process.

00:19:04:07 - 00:19:16:12
Robin Fuller:
I think I saw something the other day which is like you're like a spreadsheet of all the guitar parts. Yeah, I've kind of been in and around the music industry for, you know, a while, working on music videos, playing in bands, touring.

00:19:16:13 - 00:19:27:21
Robin Fuller:
I drive bands on tour for a few years, that kind of stuff. But that level of like detail and composition is something that's kind of like, I know people are doing it, but I've never seen it up close.

00:19:28:17 - 00:19:34:06
Robin Fuller:
So and again, as part of the Daft soundtrack that you have this very multi-layered, dense kind of sound.

00:19:34:07 - 00:19:34:17
Eyal Levi:
Yes.

00:19:36:04 - 00:19:44:15
Robin Fuller:
And so I think you from what I saw, it looked like you had like a different guitar set up for like different, different layers, I guess. Yeah, I know. Right.

00:19:45:05 - 00:20:05:24
Eyal Levi:
So that spreadsheet I posted a picture of was something I created in order to keep track of what we had to do, what we had already done, and what we were going to use for it. Because the music is so layered that if you don't keep track, you're going to forget something.

00:20:06:18 - 00:20:24:04
Eyal Levi:
But then also you'll make stupid mistakes. Like forget what you tracked a certain part with and then it. And then if the part repeats and you have to track it again, maybe not use the same guitar or use the same guitar and set up for multiple layers, which is stupid.

00:20:24:16 - 00:20:47:05
Eyal Levi:
So in order to help me keep track and then also help the musicians and engineers and everyone else know what the hell is going on at all times. I just created this spreadsheet because like, say that there's a part that has has rhythm guitars, it has bass, it has vocals, it has a melody layer, it has an

00:20:47:05 - 00:20:56:09
Eyal Levi:
arpeggio layer, it has held harmony layer. It has an orchestra with whoever, who knows how many layers and has synth. That's a lot of stuff.

00:20:56:10 - 00:20:56:19
Robin Fuller:
Yeah.

00:20:56:23 - 00:21:19:19
Eyal Levi:
So you need to make sure that at the source, those things, those elements all work together or you're going to end up with with a mess with a giant fucking mess. So one of the ways that I go about creating an arrangement or a production that will be mix of all is that every type of guitar player

00:21:20:12 - 00:21:26:22
Eyal Levi:
gets its own unique setup. So its own unique guitar, its own unique chain.

00:21:27:09 - 00:21:29:24
Robin Fuller:
We said sorry when you said chain. What is it? What does that mean?

00:21:30:05 - 00:21:37:11
Eyal Levi:
I mean, like it's own like amp amp settings, effects settings, like it gets.

00:21:37:11 - 00:21:50:09
Robin Fuller:
Treated and different set up. So yeah, each of those things are like rhythm guitars. One set up the arpeggio. Is there a different set up? Yep. Okay. And like, if we talk about just guitar, how many, how many levels we're talking here, I want to see how old, how ridiculous this is.

00:21:50:24 - 00:22:06:12
Eyal Levi:
Well, there's some parts where the rhythm guitars, for instance, are like eight going at the same time. So, you know, so you can have parts where it's like eight rhythm guitars and those arpeggios we're talking about, that's a three part harmony.

00:22:06:12 - 00:22:17:01
Eyal Levi:
So that's three right there. Then the held notes would be three more, and then the melody line was doubled in octave. So that's two. Mm hmm. That's a lot of guitars.

00:22:17:01 - 00:22:22:16
Robin Fuller:
There's a lot of guitars. And and this is you playing every guitar on every track of me.

00:22:22:17 - 00:22:38:19
Eyal Levi:
And the person who has been a great partner on all this is a guy named Jessie's already, who is a composer, has done stuff for Marvel and Netflix and. Yeah, he's pretty tremendous. He's a really, really sick guitar player.

00:22:39:04 - 00:22:52:12
Eyal Levi:
So I brought him in and he played some of the riffs too. There's some stuff that he was just better at. And then of course, with the lead guitar part of it, I did some of that. And then there's some unannounced.

00:22:53:11 - 00:22:54:23
Eyal Levi:
Yeah. Human humans.

00:22:55:21 - 00:22:58:00
Robin Fuller:
Yeah. Looking for the scoop that we can't talk about?

00:22:58:00 - 00:23:12:01
Eyal Levi:
Yeah. Well, yeah, that'll come out later. But, um, but yeah, when it comes down to the basic to the main tracks, I'd say I did like 85 to 90% of them and Jessie did like 10% of them and yeah.

00:23:12:13 - 00:23:13:23
Eyal Levi:
So a lot of stuff to learn lot.

00:23:14:01 - 00:23:28:19
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, it's a lot, you know, a lot to keep track of. But I'm like I say it's it's so I've played in bands, but it's so far from my experience so far that I'm really interested in are you, are you thinking of all this stuff when you're writing the initial songs?

00:23:28:19 - 00:23:34:01
Robin Fuller:
Are you all like, is it just you write a riff and then everything kind of grows from there?

00:23:34:06 - 00:23:51:07
Eyal Levi:
It's hard to explain. So it's more like I'm writing a theme. MM And as the theme develops, I start to understand what's a chorus, what's a verse. But there's certain things I'm looking for. Like I feel like every song needs that one riff.

00:23:51:22 - 00:24:13:12
Eyal Levi:
That's just the riff sometimes too. Every song needs a chorus. There's like certain things that I'm going for and trying to identify. But there are other times where I'm just stacking layers until this thing I'm looking for sonically or emotionally till I get it.

00:24:13:14 - 00:24:24:22
Eyal Levi:
It's it's this weird mix of intellectually knowing what has to happen with also using my gut. It's hard. It's, it's kind of a crazy process.

00:24:26:01 - 00:24:30:01
Robin Fuller:
I mean, it sounds almost like composing for an orchestra. Yeah.

00:24:30:02 - 00:24:30:11
Eyal Levi:
Kind of.

00:24:30:15 - 00:24:42:16
Robin Fuller:
You know, like, like was you've got that many different sort of different things to keep in mind. It's not just like, okay, well, the guitarist was the lead guitarist, the finesse or the rhythm place and the bass. Does this like there's so much happening.

00:24:43:01 - 00:25:02:08
Eyal Levi:
Yeah, but even when composing for an orchestra, many composers will just write at the piano. And you can take most orchestral compositions and reduce them to a piano. Like one pianist playing. It is not always the case, but in many cases so.

00:25:03:21 - 00:25:26:14
Eyal Levi:
I'm still, regardless of how over-the-top the arrangement gets or any of that stuff, I'm still aiming for something where you take all that away and it's just sick riffs and. Yeah. And it develops. Yeah, exactly. And it develops properly to where you know, that you're at a chorus because of what's happening with the way that the chords

00:25:27:03 - 00:25:44:05
Eyal Levi:
move and the way that the dynamics go. So yeah, there it like gets arranged into all these insane layers, but at its core, the basics still have to be intact. So thinking about it on several different levels at the same time.

00:25:44:09 - 00:25:44:17
Eyal Levi:
Mm hmm.

00:25:45:04 - 00:25:58:05
Robin Fuller:
And I guess kind of going back to my earlier question of whether you had any plans to play life, I guess that's the process you would have to go through. It would be to kind of take it back to the fundamental levels because like in that situation, you, you know what maybe five guys on.

00:25:58:07 - 00:26:13:12
Eyal Levi:
Yeah. So been thinking about that and I'm thinking that it's going to need to be three guitars live to pull this off. Honestly, with our old music, it kind of needed to be three guitars live and we always did it as two, but there were always things missing.

00:26:13:12 - 00:26:31:12
Eyal Levi:
And so, you know, we use backing tracks to fill in like synths and orchestrations that there was no human on stage to play. Sometimes we'd put a clean guitar or an acoustic, you know, something that it it's just we don't have enough arms to do.

00:26:31:13 - 00:26:34:02
Eyal Levi:
And there will be some of that still.

00:26:34:12 - 00:26:34:21
Robin Fuller:
Mm hmm.

00:26:35:02 - 00:26:59:23
Eyal Levi:
And so with tracks, we used tracks long before it became a super common thing, but we never used them to cheat or anything like. Some bands would put rhythm guitars or lead vocals and that's kind of bullshit. So we've, our, is our, our approach has always been put this stuff that you don't have enough humans for that

00:26:59:23 - 00:27:15:21
Eyal Levi:
needs to be in there. So I, I really would like to have three guitars live. I think that if this music kind of requires it and then we'll go from there. But yeah, it's a combination of three guitars and tracks.

00:27:16:16 - 00:27:17:15
Eyal Levi:
We'll be able to pull it off.

00:27:17:21 - 00:27:19:16
Robin Fuller:
Coleman Yeah, yeah.

00:27:20:03 - 00:27:21:03
Eyal Levi:
It is a challenge.

00:27:21:05 - 00:27:22:07
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, but it's.

00:27:22:07 - 00:27:33:07
Eyal Levi:
Pretty, it's pretty extreme. And I don't mean that in like blast beats the whole time or whatever. It's pretty extreme in how over-the-top it is, but it's a it's cool. I'm excited about it.

00:27:33:15 - 00:27:41:17
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, I mean, that's great, though. I mean, why not? Like, I don't know, like, indulge that like that proclivity to like to go over the top to become.

00:27:41:18 - 00:27:42:05
Eyal Levi:
Exactly.

00:27:42:05 - 00:27:43:07
Robin Fuller:
And put all these layers on.

00:27:43:12 - 00:27:47:11
Eyal Levi:
Yeah, I figured. Just go for it. Don't hold back.

00:27:47:14 - 00:27:48:11
Robin Fuller:
It's good advice, man.

00:27:48:20 - 00:28:04:01
Eyal Levi:
Yeah. There's no nobody to really stop me. Which could be good or could be bad, but. But I just decided to. To go all the way in a way that maybe I felt like I couldn't before.

00:28:04:07 - 00:28:12:06
Robin Fuller:
Mm hmm. Is that you think because you feel like a total ownership over. Over right now in a way that maybe you didn't earlier or.

00:28:12:11 - 00:28:28:02
Eyal Levi:
Yeah, there's a little bit of that, like, you know, a little bit of that. And, you know, when you're working with a label, it's not like it's not like they're telling you what to do, at least in our case, like they're telling us what to do musically.

00:28:28:02 - 00:28:45:22
Eyal Levi:
But still, you have to if someone's giving you a bunch of money and has expectations, like, you know, they're not this faceless corporation. They're a bunch of people and they're a bunch of people who care enough to sink a ton of money into your band.

00:28:46:05 - 00:29:07:13
Eyal Levi:
Like, you should should at least know kind of what they're expecting. And, yeah, that's going to that's going to factor in. And then when you're working with a producer, you know, then you've got the whole producers filter on and then you have a line up and the line up you've given them, you've given them writing powers, I

00:29:07:13 - 00:29:20:14
Eyal Levi:
guess. And so then that filters it. There's a bunch of filters, and this time I decided to see what happens when I control the amount of filters there are.

00:29:21:02 - 00:29:25:16
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, cool. So you mentioned producers, not as are you working with the producer at all. Are you doing that yourself?

00:29:25:20 - 00:29:50:22
Eyal Levi:
We had Andrew Wade, who was incredible, produced the vocals, totally took them to another level. It's incredible. Yeah. Okay. But as far as the overall production, we've worked with engineers, as did John Douglas, who's amazing, has like basically engineered all the guitars and has kind of kept the sessions together.

00:29:50:22 - 00:29:59:23
Eyal Levi:
And this guy number, Lightner, recorded Krim Krim, the drummer over in Austria. But basically on the producer for it.

00:29:59:23 - 00:30:15:05
Robin Fuller:
Cool that I love it when it happens and I always when I. Rapids, Iowa, should just let it happen by always feel the need to say, I love it when this happens because I'm self-indulgent. Like that is actually kind of segways nicely into, you know, talking about your work as a as a producer and engineer.

00:30:15:14 - 00:30:30:03
Robin Fuller:
Sure. So, first of all, I mean, for people who may be a little unclear. Like, can you just like define what a producer and what an engineer does and kind of what the overlap is between those roles or if there is any.

00:30:30:13 - 00:30:52:16
Eyal Levi:
So producer's job is the big picture. That means both like handling the the business side of getting it done on time, knowing what everybody's expectations are to, you know, helping the songs be what they need to be, making sure the arrangements are what they need to be.

00:30:53:24 - 00:31:05:00
Eyal Levi:
Helping the artist find their vision or fulfill their vision and helping them stay mentally in the game. It's almost like an executive producer.

00:31:05:03 - 00:31:05:11
Robin Fuller:
Mm hmm.

00:31:05:19 - 00:31:22:13
Eyal Levi:
It's like if you were to blend the director and executive producer roles from film into one role, that's what an audio producer does. And an engineer is the physical act of the recording, the editing. And sometimes producers do both.

00:31:22:14 - 00:31:41:07
Eyal Levi:
Sometimes it's a team. One person's the engineer, the other person's the producer. Like it comes in all shapes and sizes. But the engine audio engineering is the technical, physical act of recording or mixing or editing audio like the manipulation of the audio.

00:31:41:07 - 00:31:51:14
Eyal Levi:
The production is what you're doing with it and how you're getting it done. Cool. Yeah. So not. Not everyone does both. A lot of people do.

00:31:51:19 - 00:32:01:13
Robin Fuller:
Mm hmm. I'm going to say, it seems like there is that kind of overlap, you see. I mean, I know yourself. You've you've kind of worked as an engineer and a producer, and sometimes both, I guess. I'm just saying.

00:32:01:13 - 00:32:02:17
Robin Fuller:
Projects. Yeah.

00:32:03:17 - 00:32:21:12
Eyal Levi:
I'm not I'm not that great of an engineer. And I never was. I'm, like, competent at best. It was better before, you know, I don't do it really do it anymore. But that like lots of people back in the early twenties, late nineties, there were no options for getting metal recorded.

00:32:21:13 - 00:32:29:21
Eyal Levi:
There were just like usually like one dude in town with some shitty studio that all the local metal bands went to and yeah.

00:32:29:22 - 00:32:30:24
Robin Fuller:
Garbage. But those days.

00:32:31:09 - 00:32:43:12
Eyal Levi:
Yeah. Or there's the overpriced studio like where the pop acts go, where no one listens to metal and you pay thousands of dollars for a piece of shit.

00:32:43:24 - 00:32:44:21
Robin Fuller:
And don't know what to do.

00:32:44:22 - 00:33:05:01
Eyal Levi:
With it. Yeah, yeah. It's not their fault. They're not metal people. Like with these outsider genres, like metal, punk, whatever, industrial, any, any of that counter-culture music, you need to go to people who know it or you're going to if you get it, if you end up with something good, it's by chance.

00:33:06:07 - 00:33:33:23
Eyal Levi:
And so I started engineering out of necessity. I wanted to get death recorded, and I priced out going to a studio that was like the closest thing to OC and it would have been like $30,000. And, you know, I don't know about most 20 year olds, but I know how to find $30,000.

00:33:33:23 - 00:33:50:02
Eyal Levi:
So I decided I was going to take my student credit cards and max them out and buy some microphones and and just start building my own studio and learning how to do it. And one thing led to another, and that kind of became another part of my career.

00:33:50:11 - 00:34:09:23
Eyal Levi:
So I engineered and produced and mixed for several years, for like 15 years, worked with sign bands, worked at a, worked with and at a really, really big studio and have always had some level of a production role on both records for sure.

00:34:10:13 - 00:34:16:04
Eyal Levi:
Yeah. Whether credited or not, like I've always had some sort of a production role.

00:34:16:04 - 00:34:22:09
Robin Fuller:
Yeah. I mean that's unavoidable. I think really, if you're there, you've got the skills and you've got the opinions you want to get in there and and take over things.

00:34:22:14 - 00:34:23:01
Eyal Levi:
Totally.

00:34:23:08 - 00:34:40:02
Robin Fuller:
Yeah. I'm kind of curious about the process. Like if you're say, if you're working with a band, like a new band, maybe you're not worked with before. Are they bringing you like a again? I guess the analogy I would use is in film, like someone might put together like a mood board, like a sizzle reel, like all

00:34:40:02 - 00:34:49:13
Robin Fuller:
the different kind of things, little bits of things that they like. Like, Oh, we like this guitar sound from this song and we like the overall production of this. Is that do people kind of do that kind of thing?

00:34:49:14 - 00:34:50:15
Robin Fuller:
Like, Yeah, how does it work?

00:34:50:18 - 00:35:16:09
Eyal Levi:
Okay, so let me just say I haven't produced a band since 2014 fucking because of Ira. I've been talking to producers nonstop. Through now, the mics in the podcasts and all our courses. So my answer is going to be based on my experience as a producer and then all the conversations I've had with so many producers.

00:35:17:12 - 00:35:39:10
Eyal Levi:
Producers really prefer it when an artist comes in with a vision. My producers job is to help the artists fulfill their vision, not to find it for them. Or, you know, sometimes you can tell someone, maybe their vision is totally isn't totally developed, but there's something there that's your job to help, you know, find that.

00:35:39:10 - 00:35:56:11
Eyal Levi:
DIAMOND Yeah, but there are some people that are just directionless and they come to you expecting direction. And I always hated those types of projects. There's some producers who thrive on that because they just want a vehicle for their own vision.

00:35:56:11 - 00:36:15:11
Eyal Levi:
And so yeah, but I always preferred for a band to come in with an identity and a vision and some sort of a demo, maybe, like you said, a mood board. But I find that when bands would bring in like a Slipknot record and then an Empire record and then whatever, right?

00:36:15:11 - 00:36:29:24
Eyal Levi:
Like we want to sound like this and then you hear their music and it's nothing like that. It's not super helpful. And it's also it makes you wonder what their expectations are. It's better for them to come in with some sort of a demo.

00:36:30:14 - 00:36:32:24
Eyal Levi:
Otherwise you kind of have nothing to go off of.

00:36:33:00 - 00:36:33:21
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, yeah.

00:36:34:03 - 00:36:46:06
Eyal Levi:
So, yeah. So you want pre-production and some sort of a demo that has the songs in some form. Doesn't have to be great or finished obviously, but something.

00:36:46:10 - 00:36:58:02
Robin Fuller:
Yeah. And I think you kind of mentioned earlier that the idea of kind of like finding finding the thing that makes that band special, finding the thing in the sound, whatever it is like or helping them to find that.

00:36:58:11 - 00:37:09:19
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, yeah. If a band is kind of a little, a little, you know, a little rough, maybe a little young, little naive, and they haven't quite figured that out yet. Like, how did you go about that? Like, what are you looking for in those instances?

00:37:10:01 - 00:37:26:18
Eyal Levi:
Me I quickly try to determine if there's any talent there and if there is, what is that talent? What are the skills? Are there any skills here? If so, what are they? Because then once you know that, then you know where you have to fill in the blanks, basically.

00:37:28:04 - 00:37:41:05
Eyal Levi:
So try to understand who it is that I'm working with and what they're bringing to the table because they're already great at something. You don't need to help them with that. Maybe I need to suggest that they do more of it or something.

00:37:41:15 - 00:38:02:13
Eyal Levi:
But the idea is to figure to like really pay attention to who they are, what they're looking for, and then creating your approach based off of that. Every artist is unique, so there's no one how you do it other than you pay attention to who you're working with and assess the situation.

00:38:03:04 - 00:38:16:16
Eyal Levi:
Also assess how they work psychologically. Are they like you? You treat them with kid gloves? Do you need to order them around? Like what is it like? Everyone's different. So you take in all these factors, like what's the band dynamic?

00:38:17:20 - 00:38:31:24
Eyal Levi:
Is it? Is there a tyrant and a bunch of followers? Are they all on equal footing? Is there like this really insecure person that doesn't speak up much, who's actually the most talented person but keeps getting overrun by everyone else?

00:38:31:24 - 00:38:42:19
Eyal Levi:
Like, you know, figure these things out and to figure them out quickly and kind of create your approach based off of all these competing factors, basically.

00:38:42:21 - 00:38:57:13
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a lot. That's a that's a lot happening. But I kind of I'm hearing like some commonalities with with other kind of areas as well. I think it's creative leadership, I guess. Yes, it's kind of the end of the day and I think that is those got all those kind of things you mentioned in

00:38:57:13 - 00:39:15:01
Robin Fuller:
kind of talking about looking at kind of dynamics and and how different people need to be handled differently, looking at their their skills and, you know, insecurities perhaps where they need to kind of building up. I think a lot of that is is kind of several different types of creative leadership, whether that's, you know, kind of directing

00:39:15:01 - 00:39:18:14
Robin Fuller:
or producing even even reminds me of my days of lecturing in some ways as well.

00:39:18:14 - 00:39:35:09
Eyal Levi:
I mean, you need to take their insecurities into into account for sure, because with creative fields like people identify themselves on a very deep level with what they're creating, you know, maybe as a session player a little less.

00:39:35:21 - 00:39:56:09
Eyal Levi:
But when you're dealing with artists, you know, that's them. Even though, you know, you can intellectually say, I am not my art, it's bullshit. That's not how people feel now. How they feel is what matters and how they feel about themselves or how they feel about the people they're working with, how they feel about being in the

00:39:56:09 - 00:40:11:21
Eyal Levi:
studio. That is all super important because if you're not aware of that and you're not working with it. How are you going to get the best out of them? Help their vision actually sound great or look great or whatever, depending on what you're doing.

00:40:11:21 - 00:40:17:09
Eyal Levi:
So that psychological aspect is super, super important.

00:40:18:02 - 00:40:23:21
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, it's a responsibility as well as any kind of extra responsibility. It sounds like, you know, take very seriously.

00:40:24:10 - 00:40:41:03
Eyal Levi:
Yeah. Especially I mean, take it seriously. I always took it seriously, regardless of the level. But as you get with bigger bands and career bands especially, you're talking about their livelihoods and you're talking about the livelihoods of their team.

00:40:41:03 - 00:41:01:08
Eyal Levi:
And there's there's a lot of responsibility there because it's the whole artistic side of it that needs to be fulfilled. But then there's also real life shit like people's bills. Far beyond just the band members that rely on this thing that you're doing together.

00:41:01:14 - 00:41:18:18
Eyal Levi:
Being good enough to capture, not to sound, not to sound cold about this, but capture the wallets of the audience so that they can keep it going, so they can pay for their house and not have to go get a job and keep making music that other people love.

00:41:19:03 - 00:41:28:03
Eyal Levi:
And so that the people at the label can keep working there and the label can keep funding it so that the bus driver can keep driving them, you know?

00:41:28:03 - 00:41:28:19
Robin Fuller:
ALL Yeah.

00:41:28:20 - 00:41:44:12
Eyal Levi:
This whole little industry that gets built around a successful band, like if people don't like the music, it's only going to last for so long. Like bands basically that are successful basically get one, maybe two, depending on how big they are duds.

00:41:44:22 - 00:42:00:12
Eyal Levi:
And then, you know, and if you can come back from one, if you're if you have enough love, but there's some bands where one bad record totally tax them. Hmm. So you're it's a big responsibility. You're dealing with people's futures and livelihoods.

00:42:09:13 - 00:42:16:19
Robin Fuller:
Well, yeah. Now, let's let's talk about your home because that's, you know, the the other kind of the main thing that I guess takes up most of your time at the moment. Is it fair to say?

00:42:16:21 - 00:42:27:23
Eyal Levi:
Yeah. You know, for a moment there, the recording took up most of my time, but that's just one project overall. Like, my life is grim and really hard.

00:42:28:11 - 00:42:31:01
Robin Fuller:
Yeah. So you are EMI's unstoppable recording machine?

00:42:31:09 - 00:42:31:20
Eyal Levi:
Yes.

00:42:32:16 - 00:42:34:09
Robin Fuller:
Which started when.

00:42:34:12 - 00:42:54:01
Eyal Levi:
I started using the name in business around 2014. Okay. Doing some in-person bootcamps. And for people who don't know your dream is the tagline is for the world's best and biggest online school, for rock and metal producers and really hard.

00:42:54:06 - 00:43:12:17
Eyal Levi:
You know, we considered the best online school for metal guitarists. So in 2014, I started doing these in-person bootcamps in different cities under the Yarm name. But by 2015 I had shifted it to online and most people know us because of our program.

00:43:12:17 - 00:43:28:22
Eyal Levi:
Now the mix, which is our most popular, the most popular thing we've done. And yeah, like that has kind of taken over my life. And it's, it's a blessing. It kind of started to take off in about 2015, and it hasn't really stopped.

00:43:29:02 - 00:43:42:13
Robin Fuller:
Mm hmm. So it started out with these bootcamps, and you decided to take it online. Were they still sort of like just online bootcamps at that point, or were you kind of breaking it up into like a series of I mean, like a syllabus, I guess, of classes or.

00:43:42:24 - 00:44:01:16
Eyal Levi:
Well, it took a lot of thinking and trying things before I figured out what it needed to be. But I had done a bunch of classes for Creative Life, which is a really good online platform. But I felt super limited because they're not metal people, they're not audio people.

00:44:02:00 - 00:44:21:05
Eyal Levi:
So there was only and they have these limits on what you can do there. And so and I was experiencing a lot of success with my creative live classes unexpectedly. Like I, I was just doing them as a favor to my best friend because he got a job there and was trying to pitch the higher ups on

00:44:21:06 - 00:44:35:18
Eyal Levi:
this audio channel. And I was the producer he knew. So I helped him and I did these classes and introduced him to a bunch of my network and helped him book people and. It did great. It did better than anything else I had ever done.

00:44:36:01 - 00:44:48:17
Eyal Levi:
And so I just started thinking, I need to take this more seriously. So I asked him if Creative Lab would hire me and we could run the audio channel together. And he told me No chance it will never happen and you'll hate it here anyways.

00:44:49:10 - 00:45:04:20
Eyal Levi:
So I was like, okay, better. No, I had to start my own version then. Yeah. I don't know if he believed me or not, but I mean, he works for us now. So the director, his name is Finn McEntee, and he he has this YouTube channel called Punk Rock NBA that's really big.

00:45:04:20 - 00:45:19:14
Eyal Levi:
And he's our director of operations and marketing. So you are is kind of like the continuation of this thing that me and him started a creative life, but because he was a creative live, I needed different partners. So I got up with Joey Sturgis and Joe want a sec?

00:45:19:14 - 00:45:37:02
Eyal Levi:
And basically after me trying the boot camps for a little while, I just realized that it was unsustainable to do events like events because there's only so many people that are going to be able to pay to come to one of those things.

00:45:37:12 - 00:45:49:10
Eyal Levi:
And it's like it had to be expensive because we always had like some big artists there and then a studio for several days and then like 40 hours long. It's just unsustainable.

00:45:49:11 - 00:45:51:09
Robin Fuller:
Yeah. Unless any one of you. Right. So.

00:45:51:12 - 00:46:03:18
Eyal Levi:
Yeah, exactly. And how many cities could I go to where there would be 20 people who would want to show up to one of these things, considering that at these bootcamps, many of the people were flying in for them.

00:46:04:00 - 00:46:26:00
Eyal Levi:
So I feel like very quickly I was tapping out the available market for it and that didn't seem like that didn't seem like something I could scale on to anything and didn't didn't seem like a real business. So the online thing came from thinking about how can I actually make an impact with this and go big with

00:46:26:01 - 00:46:46:14
Eyal Levi:
it and like actually try to fix some of the problems that I see in metal production and make a difference with it online. And a low price seemed to be the way to go, make it, make it affordable and then also make it legit and then make it exciting like new and also make it better education than

00:46:46:14 - 00:46:50:03
Eyal Levi:
anybody else. Like those things all had to kind of work together.

00:46:50:08 - 00:47:02:00
Robin Fuller:
Yeah. Yeah. And I guess because, you know, you're already in that world right now, already in you, already in that world of that particular music, but also in the world of kind of educating people about production roles and production.

00:47:02:06 - 00:47:03:21
Robin Fuller:
It's not like you're starting from scratch, right?

00:47:04:02 - 00:47:21:14
Eyal Levi:
No, definitely not starting from scratch. And the thing about you erm stand with riff art is everything is taught by people who do it in real life, on records or in bands that people actually care about. So it's not just some random person on YouTube, it's the people who make the records.

00:47:21:22 - 00:47:22:17
Eyal Levi:
You listen to.

00:47:22:23 - 00:47:23:07
Robin Fuller:
Them.

00:47:23:09 - 00:47:41:23
Eyal Levi:
Showing you how they did it and that that's a huge differentiator. So it's not just that I had been making records and had been teaching people, so which I had. And that's what gave me, I guess, the credibility and the knowledge on how to do this.

00:47:41:23 - 00:48:03:17
Eyal Levi:
But then when we started adding in all the other metal producers who do great work, that's, you know, that's when it really, really, really started to take off. Because then it's not just my super limited knowledge. It's the knowledge of everyone who keeps the genre, the genres within heavy music moving forward.

00:48:03:17 - 00:48:20:11
Eyal Levi:
Like, yeah, definitely. One thing I don't like are these solopreneur type coaching services or like bullshit courses. Like, I mean, there's a few good ones out there, but I don't like that model where it's all about one person because how much can you get from one person?

00:48:20:11 - 00:48:40:10
Eyal Levi:
It just, it seems those seem a lot more like a money grab. Like I wanted to create something that legitimately would move the genre forward and that would capture the wisdom of all these great minds in it. Because every other genre on earth, you can go to university to learn how to do it like it's taken seriously

00:48:40:11 - 00:48:44:00
Eyal Levi:
now. Nothing like that existed ever for heavy music.

00:48:44:00 - 00:48:46:23
Robin Fuller:
So if you give it time, I think we're not far off.

00:48:47:03 - 00:49:08:16
Eyal Levi:
Well, because of shit like you are. M Yeah, now, you know, because lots of our students are now teaching at universities and are using our content to base what they're teaching off of. So our stuff has moved its way into universities and that's by design.

00:49:08:18 - 00:49:10:01
Eyal Levi:
That's what we wanted to do.

00:49:10:01 - 00:49:19:22
Robin Fuller:
That's great. And so did you quite quickly try to get other people in? Like what was that kind of process like? Was it a period where it was mainly just you kind of delivering lessons?

00:49:20:03 - 00:49:31:04
Eyal Levi:
Yeah. So the podcast side of it started with me, Joe and Joel, and now the mix started with me, Joey and Joel. For now, the mix is a monthly thing, so every month it's a different artist, the different mixer.

00:49:31:16 - 00:49:45:00
Eyal Levi:
And we started first with Joel, then with Joey, then with me, then with Joel. But after about five months, then we brought in our first outsider. So we brought in Andrew Wade and that went great. And so then a few months later, we brought in Charlie.

00:49:45:15 - 00:49:56:05
Eyal Levi:
He did a periphery track, and then we brought in Kayne Turco. He did a Papa Roach track run, and Logan made sure he did a Gojira track that was all within like the first year.

00:49:56:15 - 00:49:57:15
Robin Fuller:
So great.

00:49:57:20 - 00:50:13:16
Eyal Levi:
Yeah, because I was just thinking, like, look, this is working. It was working real well, which is me, Joe Angel. My thoughts were we were always going to add other people, but my thoughts were, someone's going to notice that this is working and then just take it and.

00:50:13:16 - 00:50:15:08
Robin Fuller:
Right. Okay, just interesting.

00:50:15:16 - 00:50:17:06
Eyal Levi:
And like, leapfrog us.

00:50:17:06 - 00:50:18:06
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, someone's going. We need.

00:50:18:06 - 00:50:18:20
Eyal Levi:
To come.

00:50:18:20 - 00:50:20:19
Robin Fuller:
With them. Money is going to come and do it bigger and better.

00:50:20:19 - 00:50:41:00
Eyal Levi:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So we need to speed up this timetable and we need to start bringing in big names now and we need to lean to be super aggressive about it because and that did happen. We did have several big players with a lot more money than us come along and try to take the idea really.

00:50:41:00 - 00:51:02:20
Eyal Levi:
And it never worked because we were already established. So not to say that it could never happen, like always looking for it, always looking for someone to come and fuck us up. But but we were super aggressive of once we knew that it was working something that an ice that was supposed to take five years, we, we

00:51:02:20 - 00:51:06:11
Eyal Levi:
just cranked it up and did it in one year.

00:51:06:22 - 00:51:24:00
Robin Fuller:
Basically it's Kramer and I kind of getting this, this image of you, this kind of. This having this real drive, kind of like you mentioned training earlier. I know you kind of you are super into that for a while and like the playing guitar and just kind of going from nothing to like that again, that drive, that

00:51:24:00 - 00:51:27:05
Robin Fuller:
kind of. I'm an extremist, I suppose. Yeah, like.

00:51:28:00 - 00:51:44:00
Eyal Levi:
But not politically or anything. But just to just to put that out there because it's a that word can get associated with a lot of people. But I'm an extremist when it comes to doing things and what I want out of life.

00:51:44:00 - 00:52:11:01
Eyal Levi:
Like I want extreme results and I'll push myself and the people around me to extreme places. And I have I have extreme vision for what I want to happen. And yeah, like with guitar, if, if I'm supposed to like do death in less than a year after not having picked up a guitar since 2014, how else could

00:52:11:01 - 00:52:24:12
Eyal Levi:
I do it? But practice a lot. I mean. I mean. A lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. There's no other way unless I wanted to take way longer. Like, we're talking years and years, and I don't about you, but I'm not getting younger.

00:52:25:03 - 00:52:28:01
Eyal Levi:
Maybe. Maybe you are. You look great, by the way. But I.

00:52:28:11 - 00:52:28:15
Robin Fuller:
Mean.

00:52:28:19 - 00:52:43:12
Eyal Levi:
But, like, I don't want things to take five years like I had or three years or anything like that. When I started playing again and realized that death was coming back, that was towards the end of 2021. The decision was made.

00:52:43:12 - 00:52:59:07
Eyal Levi:
We're putting out music by the end of 2022. That's happening regardless of who's involved, regardless of anything. We're putting out music because the clock is ticking, like or I'm not waiting till I'm 50 to do this like it's happening now.

00:52:59:12 - 00:53:12:00
Eyal Levi:
And, you know, whoever wants to do it can do it. They don't want to. That's fine, too, but like, it's happening. This is. But in order for me to be able to do it, like, I had to practice my ass off.

00:53:12:01 - 00:53:30:21
Eyal Levi:
And the same with like anything else like with you are m in order to be able to establish our foothold like anything to just create something that's, that actually does what we do, like every, every single aspect of it, like, is just have to be extreme.

00:53:31:05 - 00:53:31:14
Eyal Levi:
Mm hmm.

00:53:32:04 - 00:53:33:14
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, that's an intense if.

00:53:33:21 - 00:53:35:14
Eyal Levi:
I don't have a choice. Mm hmm.

00:53:37:07 - 00:53:39:15
Robin Fuller:
Why? Why, why? Why? Why the need for choice.

00:53:39:16 - 00:53:40:11
Eyal Levi:
It's just how much.

00:53:40:17 - 00:53:41:16
Robin Fuller:
To hang out, okay?

00:53:41:24 - 00:53:57:03
Eyal Levi:
It's how I'm wired. And I think it's important to accept who you are. And I've done a lot of a lot of work to get comfortable with myself and to understand myself. And I'm just wired to be this way.

00:53:57:04 - 00:54:12:13
Eyal Levi:
I didn't choose to be this way, but this is who I am. And so I just lean into it. It is what it is. I have big ideas and extreme goals. And so I just try and make it work for me rather than let it destroy.

00:54:12:22 - 00:54:22:07
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, I think that. I guess that's the danger, isn't it? Right, that you could or that it seems like that could be the danger at least that you could kind of let that way of thinking get on top of you in some way.

00:54:22:08 - 00:54:41:10
Eyal Levi:
Yes, totally. Yeah. There's definitely a bad side to it. And I think that having lower expectations leads to a happier life. So what I've realized is because I'm wired this way, if I don't just accept it and go with it, I'm going to live in pure torture.

00:54:42:03 - 00:54:57:11
Eyal Levi:
So because I can't lower my expectations, like I'm not one of those people, I'm jealous of those people. But those things don't work for me. So I need to kind of just live my life in a way that I get some peace.

00:54:57:19 - 00:55:01:15
Eyal Levi:
And that involves moving at a high RPM and doing some crazy shit.

00:55:01:24 - 00:55:08:03
Robin Fuller:
Hmm. Hmm. Okay. I have to say, I think I'm a little bit more laissez faire about things than I.

00:55:09:01 - 00:55:13:17
Eyal Levi:
Am and whatever. Whatever. To each their own, you know, I think yeah.

00:55:13:17 - 00:55:22:01
Robin Fuller:
I mean, this podcast, for example, I started it with the aim of getting in an episode that once every two weeks has an app and I'm nowhere near consistent.

00:55:22:02 - 00:55:35:14
Eyal Levi:
Well, look, I've seen your video work. You're great at that. And I think it all just comes down to what you want and what you're trying to do, right? Yeah. If you're trying to create the biggest podcast in the world and that's like your your thing.

00:55:35:19 - 00:55:37:15
Robin Fuller:
Yeah. I mean, Joe Rogan said.

00:55:38:00 - 00:55:49:12
Eyal Levi:
Yeah, exactly. I mean, but for real, I'd think that there's some people who do want to compete with him for their good luck. But what you want out of it will determine how hard you go. Mm hmm.

00:55:49:14 - 00:55:57:02
Robin Fuller:
I think that's that's really, really true. And I think it's also really it's important to to know what you really want.

00:55:57:08 - 00:55:58:04
Eyal Levi:
Yeah, exactly.

00:55:58:12 - 00:56:10:12
Robin Fuller:
Cause I think a lot of people, they think they want something, but actually, they kind of just like the idea of it. They're really like, you know, they want to be able to, you know, write duff songs, for example, or play guitar if I complexity.

00:56:11:00 - 00:56:12:21
Robin Fuller:
But I really want to do all the practice.

00:56:13:04 - 00:56:13:11
Eyal Levi:
No.

00:56:13:24 - 00:56:18:08
Robin Fuller:
So do they really want to do that thing? I don't think they do. They just like the idea of it right there.

00:56:18:21 - 00:56:32:02
Eyal Levi:
Or do they need to do that thing? I think, too, that's also like they might kind of want to, but they might also kind of want to go to the movies tonight and not go. Yeah, I think. Yes, that's exactly that's exactly right.

00:56:33:14 - 00:56:50:14
Eyal Levi:
Your level of effort should match the scale of your ambitions, basically. And if those two things are mismatched, you're in for some disappointment. Unless you're just one of those delusional people and then nothing disappoints you, no matter what happens.

00:56:50:14 - 00:57:04:01
Eyal Levi:
But. But, yeah, like, your level of effort has to match what it is that you're going for. If you want. If you want to start a podcast that's going to compete with Joe Rogan, you have a lot of work to do and good luck.

00:57:04:01 - 00:57:10:11
Robin Fuller:
Speaking of podcasting, I mean, you you started podcasting, you said back in was 27, I think.

00:57:10:19 - 00:57:11:06
Eyal Levi:
13 or.

00:57:11:06 - 00:57:14:05
Robin Fuller:
14, 14. The podcast even existed in 2007. I don't know.

00:57:14:09 - 00:57:19:10
Eyal Levi:
I don't I don't know if they did or didn't, but it wasn't cool yet when I started doing it.

00:57:19:12 - 00:57:27:11
Robin Fuller:
Okay. Okay. Most you're ahead of the curve. So. Yeah. What was that. Was that up in the erm stuff. Was that kind of part and parcel of the same thing or.

00:57:27:12 - 00:57:49:13
Eyal Levi:
It was pre you are. I actually started doing podcasts with Finn, I think we called it the Unstoppable Killing Machine podcast. Okay. And. We did a few episodes and it was wasn't specifically about recording. It was just talking to people that we knew in music who had done cool stuff and talking to them about doing cool stuff

00:57:49:18 - 00:58:09:02
Eyal Levi:
and achieving cool things. The erm podcast came about excuse me a little bit later, but it followed that same mentality of find people who are doing something cool and have something to offer, then get inside their heads rather than asking them exactly how they do every technical thing.

00:58:09:07 - 00:58:17:09
Eyal Levi:
Just try to get inside their heads and understand where they're at mentally. But yeah, and by the end of 2014, that's when I decided to go hard with it.

00:58:18:16 - 00:58:30:11
Robin Fuller:
So was that do you see that as being something to support your academy or to kind of bring more people along to that? Or is it just that kind of a thing that exists alongside it was the relationship that multifaceted.

00:58:30:16 - 00:58:48:00
Eyal Levi:
So it's not a revenue driver at all and it never will be. You know, some podcast, Candy, but that's not the point. So the point with the forum and referred podcasts is to basically get the human side of the story.

00:58:48:01 - 00:59:02:09
Eyal Levi:
So on now the mics or whatever. We're going hard on this mix of this song and everything about it, but there's this whole psychological aspect to the whole thing that we can't cover in our courses. It doesn't make sense.

00:59:02:09 - 00:59:20:06
Eyal Levi:
It's not course material, it's podcast material. And so that's that's one thing. It's like that whole side of it gets covered in the podcasts also gives me an opportunity to talk to friends. You know, that's the only chance I get to talk to certain people at length.

00:59:20:08 - 00:59:42:10
Eyal Levi:
So there's that. And then also it's a great way to meet new people that could potentially work with a drummer really hard because, you know, people have reservations. Producers have reservations about doing online classes or whatever. By doing the You Are In podcast, a lot of people have realized that we're legit, we know what we're talking about

00:59:42:14 - 00:59:50:06
Eyal Levi:
, or it's going to be good to work with us just through the conversation. So serves several, several purposes.

00:59:50:08 - 00:59:58:02
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, but then it's yeah, it is it is kind of everything kind of comes full circle, I suppose in a way, all these things are kind of relating to each other.

00:59:58:02 - 00:59:58:23
Eyal Levi:
Yes, totally.

00:59:58:23 - 01:00:00:08
Robin Fuller:
Like you said, it's multifaceted, right?

01:00:00:20 - 01:00:20:02
Eyal Levi:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I've always thought that you should have or try in your career to have everything. Feed everything else. Mm hmm. Have it all work together, if you can. Mm hmm. So that's kind of what I've always stuck to, is try to do things that will work with the other things that I'm doing.

01:00:20:03 - 01:00:20:22
Robin Fuller:
It's good advice.

01:00:21:06 - 01:00:23:10
Eyal Levi:
It's not always possible, but it has been for me.

01:00:23:18 - 01:00:34:22
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, I know. So, you know, thinking of things, working with other things and other things. Are there any things that you've not yet explored that you want to do, you know, kind of realms that you're looking to, to move into?

01:00:35:18 - 01:00:51:13
Eyal Levi:
No, not yet. Okay. I'm so wrapped up in what you are referred andother doing that I, I haven't gotten there yet, but definitely going to do things even more extreme like I would have at one point in time.

01:00:51:20 - 01:01:11:16
Eyal Levi:
Not imagined putting out a course of Zach Wilde. But that's what's coming up with Riff Hard and Zach, of course, coming up. And, you know, those are things that you can say you'd like, but it's a lot of work between where you start to where something like that is even on the radar.

01:01:11:19 - 01:01:28:20
Eyal Levi:
So whatever it is, like five years from now or ten years from now that I'm doing, I don't think it's on my radar yet. I think that it will reveal itself as as I go. One thing I try to do is to pay attention to where things are headed and what makes sense.

01:01:28:20 - 01:01:37:12
Eyal Levi:
So I've always been able to figure out what the next step is at the right time. So right now is not the right time, but it will be something bigger.

01:01:37:13 - 01:01:41:24
Robin Fuller:
Yeah, I like the idea. It's not on the radar yet. It will reveal itself with time.

01:01:42:03 - 01:01:42:22
Eyal Levi:
It always does.

01:01:53:17 - 01:02:10:13
Robin Fuller:
So that was Al Levi. I first met Al back in I think it was 29 or 28, something like that when I directed a music video for Duff. I had a great time. I flew out to Atlanta, Georgia, says, shoot the video, and he and the rest of the band will see our spectacle.

01:02:11:05 - 01:02:23:15
Robin Fuller:
They took me to the aquarium and the Coca-Cola Museum and a chick fillet. And yeah, the video turned out pretty, pretty well to us is kind of happy with with how that video went. And yeah, they're all they're really nice guys.

01:02:23:20 - 01:02:34:00
Robin Fuller:
I've kind of kept loosely in touch with Al over the years and kind of kept an eye on what he's been up to. But now, with New Duff music on the horizon seemed like the perfect time to really catch up and to kind of dig into things.

01:02:34:07 - 01:02:52:19
Robin Fuller:
A few kind of takeaways from that conversation. I mean, it's fascinating to talk about the the music production and the kind of extreme music composition that's going into these things that I think maybe people who don't listen to a lot of metal music wouldn't necessarily associate with metal music.

01:02:53:11 - 01:03:10:00
Robin Fuller:
I don't know, maybe, maybe, maybe they do, maybe they don't. But yeah, that level of musicality that's going into it is pretty insane. Yeah, a couple of things that they kind of A.L.S., I think are really kind of nice little sound bites, this idea that your level of investment should match your level of ambition.

01:03:10:09 - 01:03:21:18
Robin Fuller:
I think it's really a really good phrase and kind of like a succinct way of putting quite a lot of things. And I think you can kind of take that in a couple of different ways. The first is kind of obvious, right?

01:03:21:19 - 01:03:37:06
Robin Fuller:
Like if you want big results, you have to put in big amounts of work. But I think you can also look at something like that kind of the other way, and that's to start by being really grounded and by being really honest with yourself about what your ambitions truly are.

01:03:37:19 - 01:03:48:24
Robin Fuller:
I think there's a lot of pressure on creative people to kind of just go big with everything. Everything's going to be bigger, everything's got to make more money, reach a bigger audience, you know, get bigger and bigger and bigger.

01:03:48:24 - 01:04:02:24
Robin Fuller:
But if you're a band and you're happy just playing local shows and connecting, really connecting with a small crowd, then that's great. If you're happy, I don't know, making purses at the weekends and selling them affairs, then that's great.

01:04:02:24 - 01:04:23:13
Robin Fuller:
You don't have to push everything as big as it possibly can go. Unless you want to. And I think. If you're able to be really honest with yourself about what your ambitions are and what your level of investment, what level of investment is is really accessible to you and you can align those things.

01:04:23:14 - 01:04:38:13
Robin Fuller:
Then I think you can get yourself in a really good place. No, everything has to be as big as it possibly can be, I think. I think that's my kind of take on things. He did everything he said that I really kind of connected with was this idea that whatever comes next isn't on my radar yet.

01:04:38:13 - 01:04:57:02
Robin Fuller:
It will reveal itself in time. I think that's a great sentiment. I think my anxiety would be that possibly whatever's next would be kind of trying to repeat itself, but I would be too wrapped up in the present thing that I was doing to notice it and that maybe I would miss opportunities some.

01:04:57:17 - 01:05:12:04
Robin Fuller:
But yeah, no. I think there's a lot of wisdom in the idea that just be patient and and the thing will reveal itself in time. The thing that you're supposed to be doing, if you're really supposed to be doing it, will reveal itself and you will be drawn to it because you can't do anything else.

01:05:13:00 - 01:05:25:12
Robin Fuller:
So if you made it this far through the episode, you're amazing. Thank you so much for listening. Make sure you subscribe and all that good stuff. Also, if you could just help spread the word by sharing this episode on social media or whatever.

01:05:26:03 - 01:05:37:00
Robin Fuller:
That would be super, super helpful. So if you feel moved to do that, then I thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Dale, for taking the time to record this episode. Thank you to Simon for the music, as always.

01:05:38:15 - 01:05:47:13
Robin Fuller:
And to you I would say enjoy your dreams and ambitions. And if you ever feel creatively lost, trust that your next step will reveal itself in time. Thanks for listening.